Is personal responsibility a thing of the past?

Then why quote it out of context?

I don't believe I did, you stated the obvious - that there were two sets of responsibilities - which was already implied further back in the thread.

There may be two differing sets of responsibilities but there is no way they carry the same weight. If the "kids" hadn't been trespassing they wouldn't have been hurt secure site or not. They chose to take the risk, they can deal with the consequences.

It's their own damn fault one of them got hurt and no amount of trying to apportion blame on the landowners (something this country is very good at doing ) changes that.

For what it's worth, I did my fair share of messing around on building sites as a kid - in hindsight really stupid and risky but it was a buzz. The kids in this case would have been looking for the same kind of thrill and if you take these kinds of risks you have to suck it up when it goes bad.
 
An no of those require a cage.

They require a cage or similar way of securing the material. This is to comply with all the relevant regulations as stated and the ACoP given by the RGS. A cage is simply an example (a common one) of how the regulations are fulfilled. If there is a dedicated building or steel store then that is also compliant, it it is in a shared use building or falls within certain distance and/or quantity stipulations then the use of secured (as in to the wall/floor) steel cupboards, cabinets or a structural partition or wire mesh cage are used. You cannot take the various compliances individually, you have to consider them as a whole.
 
(as in to the wall/floor) steel cupboards, cabinets or a structural partition or wire mesh cage are used. You cannot take the various compliances individually, you have to consider them as a whole.

I'm not.
Your trying to state in all circumstances you need xyz Orr t least that's what's implied earlier in the thead.

Anyway I'm out, can't be bothered 1.4s explosive are not required to be ridiculously secured that you need a proffesional person to break in.
 
Where did I say with bare hands? Hmm yeah I didn't

How am I underestimating, it's there in black and white, what is required.


And just becuase you haven't absolved them, doesn't mean it's not propergander. You are on purpose making the kids look better and saying its impossible. It simply isn't impossible. What you are saying is aimed to influence a community and isn't correct, that Is propergander.

No it isn't, because whether the relevant blame is ascribed to those responsible or not doesn't alter the respective responsibilities of the parties....

I am not saying that NWR are responsible for the kids actions or that they should be held responsible for them...I am saying that they are responsible for the safety of their site and that includes with regard to trespassers...
 
I am not saying that NWR are responsible for the kids actions or that they should be held responsible for them...I am saying that they are responsible for the safety of their site and that includes with regard to trespassers...

again no issue with that and I agree, allready stated many times what my issue was.
 
I don't believe I did, you stated the obvious - that there were two sets of responsibilities - which was already implied further back in the thread.

Then why are you saying thsi: "You really believe that? Explains a lot about this thread, and just wow."

seems a rather strange way to reply to something that is obvious.

There may be two differing sets of responsibilities but there is no way they carry the same weight. If the "kids" hadn't been trespassing they wouldn't have been hurt secure site or not. They chose to take the risk, they can deal with the consequences.

The law disagrees with you to some extent, the landowner does have a duty of care to potential trespassers and the security and safety of their premises...this is particularly so in the case of Network Rail and entities like them.

The kids are responsible for their actions, they are also responsible for the risk they took (if it was taken knowingly), but that doesn't abrogate NWR of their obligations to ensure the safety and security of their site....if they are found to have been negligent then they share some of the responsibly of the outcome regardless of proportional attributable of blame.

It's their own damn fault one of them got hurt and no amount of trying to apportion blame on the landowners (something this country is very good at doing ) changes that.

I do not think anyone is actually saying that. I am not.

For what it's worth, I did my fair share of messing around on building sites as a kid - in hindsight really stupid and risky but it was a buzz. The kids in this case would have been looking for the same kind of thrill and if you take these kinds of risks you have to suck it up when it goes bad.

Indeed, as long as the regulations and obligations of the site owner are fulfilled within reasonable expectations, I agree.
 
again no issue with that and I agree, allready stated many times what my issue was.

An issue that seems vested in not understanding how various regulations are complied with on a practical basis.

Anyway, I wasted too much time trying to explain what to me seems like common sense and I cannot be bothered with all the semantics and misrepresentation of what is being said.

It is quite clear that the boys are responsible for their actions.....it is quite clear that NWR have a responsibly to secure and maintain their site and the material within it, it is clear that the boys got hold of explosives and that they were irresponsible and stupid and will pay the price for that.

What is not clear is how three boys were able to obtain explosives as easily as they maintain they did, and if what they say is true (and you have said yourself that NWR are always being fined for not securing RFS properly) then NWR have a legal obligation themselves.... neither abrogates the responsibility of the other, but together the irresponsibility of both parties contributed (if NWR are found to be negligent) to the incident and therefore each must be held responsible for the outcome.

That is it really.....everything else is pretty much details designed to force the opinion that the kids are solely responsible regardless of whether NWR have a legal responsiblity for their site or not and with that I am out to do something more constructive.
 
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The kids in this case would have been looking for the same kind of thrill and if you take these kinds of risks you have to suck it up when it goes bad.

Indeed, as long as the regulations and obligations of the site owner are fulfilled within reasonable expectations, I agree.

I don't want to mis-represent what you said so I'm going to be quite careful in this observation, but it could be read from your last comment that IF the site owner hadn't met his obligations then the trespassers could be relieved of all THEIR responsibility in this matter. I think that's a really dangerous precedent to set and I'd hope no court in the land would allow such a thing.

I might have read you wrong though so please feel free to correct me! :)
 
I don't want to mis-represent what you said so I'm going to be quite careful in this observation, but it could be read from your last comment that IF the site owner hadn't met his obligations then the trespassers could be relieved of all THEIR responsibility in this matter. I think that's a really dangerous precedent to set and I'd hope no court in the land would allow such a thing.

I might have read you wrong though so please feel free to correct me! :)

No, the trespassers are not absolved from their responsibility simply because the outcome was also predicated by a failure of the site owner to fulfil their obligations. The trespassers are still liable for the trespass and the theft....the boy still has to live with the consequences of his actions...however if NWR are also found to have been negligent then they share a portion of the responsibility of the outcome.

Effectively this means that there are potentially two guilty parties, the boys for breaking the law and NWR for failing to adhere to their legal obligations. How that responsibility is attributed and to what degree is a matter for a court to decide, but there is precedent where a claimant has their claim substantially reduced due to their own part in the incident, not to forget the obligations set out in the Occupiers' Liability Act 1984 on site owners.

So it isn't about point the finger of blame at one individual and saying 'it's all your fault' or 'if you didn't do this, this would not have happened' in isolation, be it NWR or the boys themselves, but assessing the relative responsibility and addressing the respective punishments and/or measures that need to be taken.

For my part, NWR should not be held liable for the actions of the boys, equally the boys should not be held liable for the (potential) failure of NWR. Time will tell as to how it all pans out, NWR and the BTP will investigate as a matter of course and if NWR are found to have taken all reasonable and practical precausions in securing their site and the safety therein, then they will have no case to answer, if however they are found to have been negligent they will.......this has no bearing on the theft/trespass allegations/prosecutions on the three young men and any responsibilty that NWR have toward the injured boy is for a court to decide (and is separate from the boys responsibilty for trespassing/theft) and on past evidence any compensation for negligence will be severly limited by the injured boys own actions and responsibility for his own injury.

Effectively one illegal action doesn't absolve the other. I hope that clarifies my position somewhat, and I apologise for the remark earlier, I misunderstood your motivation.
 
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Effectively one illegal action doesn't absolve the other. I hope that clarifies my position somewhat, and I apologise for the remark earlier, I misunderstood your motivation.

Good answer, thanks for the clarification (and the apology) - I think you and I might actually have consensus. :)
 
Idiots and they're hardly normall explosives, get more bang from a firework. I'm surprised they where injured at all.

You're kidding? My dad used to bring them home from work when the expiry date went by and we'd shoot them with air rifles. I distinctly remember on one occasion getting a cracking shot on one and the disc flying pst my right ear to emebed itself in a concrete rendered wall!*

*didn't stop us ******* about with them though - and the world didn't end either!
 
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