Mitt Romney

If I recall correctly the "wiping off the map" is slightly exaggerated by the translation (I'll find the source) - on-top of that the fact the USA is the only country to have used nuclear weapons on civilian targets (which it did so twice) & has invaded countless countries since then, slightly outweighs that point (even if it was true).

The non-nuclear proliferation treaty didn't come into affect until 1970 and wasn't global until 1995, way after the US already had nuclear weapons.

As I said, if the US had no nukes currently but declared they were going to start building some they would face the same pressures as Iran so there is no 'unfairness'.

The US build their nukes when they weren't taboo, that horse has bolted. Any country today who wants to build or increase their nukes isn't allowed to, saying it's 'unfair' that the US can have them and not Iran is a gross simplification of the issue.

Rapper Mos Def tries to make the same argument here and is brilliantly rebutted by Maher and Hitchens....

 
The non-nuclear proliferation treaty didn't come into affect until 1970 and wasn't global until 1995, way after the US already had nuclear weapons.

As I said, if the US had no nukes currently but declared they were going to start building some they would face the same pressures as Iran so there is no 'unfairness'.

The US build their nukes when they weren't taboo, that horse has bolted. Any country today who wants to build or increase their nukes isn't allowed to, saying it's 'unfair' that the US can have them and not Iran is a gross simplification of the issue.

Rapper Mos Def tries to make the same argument here and is brilliantly rebutted by Maher and Hitchens....

The horse has already bolted argument isn't a argument from logic.

If anything the USA has proven already they are not to be trusted with them - besides, does anybody have any evidence that Iran is trying to make nuclear weapons?, or is this another WMD (ala Iraq) that people seem to have forgotten about.

What about Isreal?, who refuse to sign the NPT & have nukes? - is that fine & should that be ignored?.

If American wasn't going around the world systematically getting involved (in a military sense) with oil rich nations then I could see your point, but as it stands I can't blame any nation with oil for wanting to safeguard it'self against invasion.
 
The horse has already bolted argument isn't a argument from logic.

How so? US build nuclear programme before it was deemed as evil as it is today. Decades later society realises nukes aren't good so we decide no one else can start building them or increasing their stockpiles. Decades later again Iran decide they want to build them. One built their nukes before the treaty and attitudes were different (less informed even) and one wants to build them now.

It's no different to you saying it's unfair that I have house built using aspestos and you should be able to have one too. We realised how dangerous it was, stopped people using it in construction but we haven't gone and knocked down every single building build in the past with the stuff have we?


If anything the USA has proven already they are not to be trusted with them

How so? I take it you have considered the alternative of the US not using them in Japan. I presume you've done the calculations to see what they death rate would have been had they not?

It is a debatable point I'll grant, but most historians tend to believe the bombs dropped over Hiroshima and Nagasaki actually saved more lives than they killed. A land invasion is likely to have resulted in far more casualties.

Also why did they use them? To end one of the worst global conflicts in man kinds history against an enemy that claimed they would never surrender under any circumstances. Any other country in Japan's position would have folded given their main ally, Germany, had been taken out at that point.

It was either drop those bombs and end the war there and then or continue to fight a bloody and brutal land war that would have killed potentially millions over years and years.

What about Isreal?, who refuse to sign the NPT & have nukes? - is that fine & should that be ignored?.

No but that's someone else, not Iran who we are discussing. Furthermore, whilst Israel are ambiguous on the subject, it's wildly believed they started their nuclear programme in 1958, 12 years before the NPT came into affect so the same argument about the US's right to have them comes in.

If American wasn't going around the world systematically getting involved (in a military sense) with oil rich nations then I could see your point, but as it stands I can't blame any nation with oil for wanting to safeguard it'self against invasion.

But they aren't using nuclear weapons when they do that though and they are not threatening to. How much easier would it have been to just drop a nuke of Iraq and Afghanistan? The fact the US was prepared to fight a long bloody war with thousands of deaths and casualties on its side should show you they aren't prepared to use them (in regular warfare). Now compare that to Hezbollah surrogate groups marching around the Middle East with mushroom cloud flags and you really want those people to have nukes because of some weird sense of 'fairness'?
 
Last edited:
Relevant image:
iranzl.jpg


The only reason Iran can't have nukes is because then they cannot be 'liberated' by us in the coming years, look at a map Iran is surrounded by US forces and the sanctions already placed on them is an act of war.

The only reason they want nukes to prevent their country going the way of Iraq/Libya/Syria with a puppet government installed.
 
Just when I think I'm getting a grip on this country an election (of some kind) comes around....and I want to run, screaming, for the next boat back to Britain :rolleyes:

People are very passionate about their politics over here, but unfortunately there is little real intelligent debate. It largely boils down to people seeing themselves as red or blue. That's it. There's a certain degree of that behavior in any country, of course, but over here it just reaches levels of retardation that are quite mind-boggling.

The above image is a ridiculous simplification. I agree with the general point it's making, but if you think the Iran box is really empty......I despair.
 
How so? US build nuclear programme before it was deemed as evil as it is today. Decades later society realises nukes aren't good so we decide no one else can start building them or increasing their stockpiles. Decades later again Iran decide they want to build them. One built their nukes before the treaty and attitudes were different (less informed even) and one wants to build them now.
It still a shaky defence at best.

It's no different to you saying it's unfair that I have house built using aspestos and you should be able to have one too.
It's very different, I'm not hinting to invade/bomb your house (like Romney is doing now) & asbestos is the only thing which would make you think twice.

How so? I take it you have considered the alternative of the US not using them in Japan. I presume you've done the calculations to see what they death rate would have been had they not?
Are you saying that dropping it on a low populated region nearby would not have been enough of a show of force to make them surrender?, I highly doubt a nation would continue the war if a an entire region nearby get's vaporised & got a message saying "if you don't surrender the next one will be on a city".

You are attempting to rationalise the mass slaughter of civilians by nuclear weapons when in reality it was not required - it's never required.

It is a debatable point I'll grant, but most historians tend to believe the bombs dropped over Hiroshima and Nagasaki actually saved more lives than they killed. A land invasion is likely to have resulted in far more casualties.
That's on the assumption that they could not have achieved the same by simply selecting a different target (military base for example) - which we both know would have been as effective.

They wanted to test how much damage it would do & selected two civilian targets to do so.

Also why did they use them? To end one of the worst global conflicts in man kinds history against an enemy that claimed they would never surrender under any circumstances. Any other country in Japan's position would have folded given their main ally, Germany, had been taken out at that point.
Read above.

It was either drop those bombs and end the war there and then or continue to fight a bloody and brutal land war that would have killed potentially millions over years and years.
Fallacy of false choices, it's not a case of one or the other, many alternative opportunities existed.

No but that's someone else, not Iran who we are discussing. Furthermore, whilst Israel are ambiguous on the subject, it's wildly believed they started their nuclear programme in 1958, 12 years before the NPT came into affect so the same argument about the US's right to have them comes in.
Israel having nuclear weapons is important to the discussion of Iran (who according to accusations with no evidence) want to develop them.

I'm not sure if you are aware, but have you seen what's happened to Palestine over the last 50 years?, don't you think this kind of military invasion/land-grab might push nations in the region into wanting a deterrent?.

But they aren't using nuclear weapons when they do that though and they are not threatening to. How much easier would it have been to just drop a nuke of Iraq and Afghanistan?
Nuking a region doesn't look very good in the opinion polls, neither does it aid oil production much.

The fact the US was prepared to fight a long bloody war with thousands of deaths and casualties on its side should show you they aren't prepared to use them (in regular warfare).
All it shows is how much it views it's troops as expendable.

Now compare that to Hezbollah surrogate groups marching around the Middle East with mushroom cloud flags and you really want those people to have nukes because of some weird sense of 'fairness'?
Who said I want them to have nukes?, I said I can't blame them for wanting them with America posturing/invasion of local Arab nations & Israel being involved in a constant war/land-grab along with the assassination of scientists.

I don't want anybody to have nuclear weapons, but I'm far more concerned about the USA using them AGAIN & Israel using them in some misguided sense of "self defence" than Iran in total honesty.
 
I'm quite tempted to vote for Obama just so he is holding the bag when the economy finally caves in. Although I'm not sure that will happen within 4 years. Things are definitely going to get worse though and I'd like the democrats and socialism take the blame.

I'd also like to see the Republicans finally admit that they can't win anymore with an every dwindling supply of white people. Romney polled 0%... Z-E-R-O percent with black voters. Don't know what latinos polled at but traditionally it's less than 1/3 republican, yet they keep pandering to the P.C. police and minorities. I hope the GOP dies.
 
It's very different, I'm not hinting to invade/bomb your house (like Romney is doing now) & asbestos is the only thing which would make you think twice.

You've missed the point. It's not about the dangers of aspestos vs nukes, it was an example of something where we said at one point 'let's stop this' but continued allowed previous examples remain.

Are you saying that dropping it on a low populated region nearby would not have been enough of a show of force to make them surrender?

Yes, because when you give a country a warning they have time to prepare for next time. The whole reason it worked and forced a surrender was the shock value and the fact both of those cities were important to the Japanese war effort.

Had they fired a warning shot as you suggested the Japanese would have simply moved their munitions factories and military camps elsewhere making the intel gained so far useless.

, I highly doubt a nation would continue the war if a an entire region nearby get's vaporised & got a message saying "if you don't surrender the next one will be on a city".

Then you vastly underestimate the Japense resolve in WW2.

You are attempting to rationalise the mass slaughter of civilians by nuclear weapons when in reality it was not required - it's never required.

No I'm saying 200k dead is the lesser of two evils compared to potentially a million dead. I'm not supporting death, I'm supporting the least amount of death where death is inevitable.

That's on the assumption that they could not have achieved the same by simply selecting a different target (military base for example) - which we both know would have been as effective.

They wanted to test how much damage it would do & selected two civilian targets to do so.

OK it seems you need to do a little research here, throughout your post and especially here you are making Hiroshima and Nagasaki sound like two cities that had no strategic value and the US targeting them because they wanted to kill a load of civilians.

Hiroshima had large depots of military supplies, was a key center for shipping and had military bases. Nagasaki was one of the biggest ports in southern Japan and was of great wartime importance because of its wide-ranging industrial activity, including the production of ordnance, ships, military equipment, and other war materials.

Ergo they were military targets and not just an opportunity for the Americans to kill a load of Japs as you make it sound.

Fallacy of false choices, it's not a case of one or the other, many alternative opportunities existed.

Go on then, explain to me how you would have avoided less than 200k deaths by continuing a war that was killing 1000s daily in any other manner, I'd love to hear what this brilliant solution that no one else in the world thought was viable option is.

Israel having nuclear weapons is important to the discussion of Iran (who according to accusations with no evidence) want to develop them.

I'm not sure if you are aware, but have you seen what's happened to Palestine over the last 50 years?, don't you think this kind of military invasion/land-grab might push nations in the region into wanting a deterrent?.

Whilst I don't condone Israel or their handling of the Palestine issue, if you think one Jewish State surrounded by Islamic ones, many of whom are influenced heavily by radical Islam shouldn't be worried I'd love to know how you got to that conclusion.

Do honestly believe that if you could take the entire middle east, stick it on another planet and remove all nukes from it that Israel wouldn't be wiped out within months?

Of course it would, they are the most hated countries in the region and whilst SOME of it is justified and based on their actions, it is underlined by anti-Semitism of radical Islam.

Simple fact is if Israel had no nukes and didn't have the backup of the US it would have been invaded a long time ago.

Who said I want them to have nukes?, I said I can't blame them for wanting them with America posturing/invasion of local Arab nations & Israel being involved in a constant war/land-grab along with the assassination of scientists.

I can't blame them for wanting them either, that doesn't mean I would argue reasons for them being able to have them like you seem to be doing.

On the murder of scientists, do you have any proof this is the work of Israel/US?

I don't want anybody to have nuclear weapons, but I'm far more concerned about the USA using them AGAIN & Israel using them in some misguided sense of "self defence" than Iran in total honesty.

Don't worry, it ain't going to happen unless something really, really extreme changes. A wacko President Romney isn't it.
 
Last edited:
Romney's speech was LOL

as for all the hate for Obamacare its just retarded, hey we are republicans and we dont want poor people to have access to medical care, morons!

anything is possible with the American electorate, they did elect Bush for two damn terms, well allegedly if it wasnt for the dodgy dealings in Florida.
 
You've missed the point. It's not about the dangers of aspestos vs nukes, it was an example of something where we said at one point 'let's stop this' but continued allowed previous examples remain.
I didn't say it was about the dangers, just that they have a reason to want them.

Yes, because when you give a country a warning they have time to prepare for next time. The whole reason it worked and forced a surrender was the shock value and the fact both of those cities were important to the Japanese war effort.

Had they fired a warning shot as you suggested the Japanese would have simply moved their munitions factories and military camps elsewhere making the intel gained so far useless.

Then you vastly underestimate the Japense resolve in WW2.

No I'm saying 200k dead is the lesser of two evils compared to potentially a million dead. I'm not supporting death, I'm supporting the least amount of death where death is inevitable.

OK it seems you need to do a little research here, throughout your post and especially here you are making Hiroshima and Nagasaki sound like two cities that had no strategic value and the US targeting them because they wanted to kill a load of civilians.

Hiroshima had large depots of military supplies, was a key center for shipping and had military bases. Nagasaki was one of the biggest ports in southern Japan and was of great wartime importance because of its wide-ranging industrial activity, including the production of ordnance, ships, military equipment, and other war materials.

Ergo they were military targets and not just an opportunity for the Americans to kill a load of Japs as you make it sound.

Go on then, explain to me how you would have avoided less than 200k deaths by continuing a war that was killing 1000s daily in any other manner, I'd love to hear what this brilliant solution that no one else in the world thought was viable option is.
Subjective.

I think a couple of strategic strikes on solo military targets would have been sufficient to end the war, they didn't have to pick two cities (with some military value) - you make it sound like literally all other options had been exhausted.

"These cities were largely untouched during the nightly bombing raids and the Army Air Force agreed to leave them off the target list so accurate assessment of the weapon could be made." - from the article on-line, supporting my point that the key factor was to assess how well the bomb performed.

It's still a point of debate regarding the role the bombings involved in the surrender of Japan & if indeed it saved or cost more lives.

Whilst I don't condone Israel or their handling of the Palestine issue, if you think one Jewish State surrounded by Islamic ones, many of whom are influenced heavily by radical Islam shouldn't be worried I'd love to know how you got to that conclusion.
You see, why do you think the Islamic people hate Israel?, you make it sound like it's aggression without cause.

Do honestly believe that if you could take the entire middle east, stick it on another planet and remove all nukes from it that Israel wouldn't be wiped out within months?
So it's OK for Israel to have nukes to prevent invasion (because it's surrounded by enemies) but it's not OK for Iran to have nukes to prevent invasion (when every single country around it has been invaded pretty much)?.

Of course it would, they are the most hated countries in the region and whilst SOME of it is justified and based on their actions, it is underlined by anti-Semitism of radical Islam.
Anti- Semitism was mostly a European trend at the time, the relationship between the Jewish & the Muslims prior to the hostile takeover of Palestine was nowhere near as bad as it is now.

It was the west decision to give the Jewish people somebody else's land to make up for what the Germans did which caused the issue to begin with.

Simple fact is if Israel had no nukes and didn't have the backup of the US it would have been invaded a long time ago.
Which is exactly why Iran wants them also, you can't say it's fine for Israel to have nukes because people want to invade it, but not Iran (Who people want to invade).

I can't blame them for wanting them either, that doesn't mean I would argue reasons for them being able to have them like you seem to be doing.
I'm not arguing for reasons for them to have the, I'm explaining the reasons why they want them - perhaps if they didn't have enemies at the gate they wouldn't feel such a need to get them.

On the murder of scientists, do you have any proof this is the work of Israel/US?
Who do you think did it?.

Don't worry, it ain't going to happen unless something really, really extreme changes. A wacko President Romney isn't it.
I wouldn't be so sure.

We will have to agree to disagree, as the arguments are getting circular & we are moving further away from the topic at hand - I'll be happy to discuss it further in another thread.
 
I think a couple of strategic strikes on solo military targets would have been sufficient to end the war, they didn't have to pick two cities (with some military value) - you make it sound like literally all other options had been exhausted.

I'm afraid you're completely wrong on this case. The "conventional" military industrial infrastructure of WW2 Japan had been utterly obliterated by conventional bombardment from strategic bombers. Max Hastings has an excellent book covering this.

American bomber command was actually starting to complain that they had run out of strategically importnat military targets to bomb. Japanese cities of any strategic importance had been decimated by aerial firebombing. It's estimated that an earlier conventional raid on Tokyo killed in excess of 300,000 people. The remaining Japanese war industry was highly decentralised, very similar to a cottage industry. The only way it could be targetted was via the mass aerial bombardment of civilian areas. The other options had been exhausted. The A-bomb sent a very clear message. While exposing outselves to almost no danger we can destroy every city in Japan. The continuation of conventional bombing, followed by an invasion is very different. Japan new they had lost. They gambled with the lives of their civilians that then could negotiate better terms by inflicting massive casualties on America. They lost.

"These cities were largely untouched during the nightly bombing raids and the Army Air Force agreed to leave them off the target list so accurate assessment of the weapon could be made." - from the article on-line, supporting my point that the key factor was to assess how well the bomb performed.

I agree that this was a factor but not the primary one. The key objective was to end the war with minimal loss of US life. Bombing relatively untouched cities had two goals. First it showed clearly to the Japanese the power of these new weapons. Secondly, it allowed the US to properly asses the damage. This last benefit should not be underestimated. It showed to the world the true horror of atomic weapons. If it were not for this I strongly believe they would have been deployed at a later date. Maybe in the cold war? The loss of life as result of the atom bombing was awful, but it perversly may have saved the lives of millions by instilling a sense of horror in everyone.






Hind sight is a wonderful thing. With our current moral standards it's easy to demonize the dropping of two bombs on Japan. But to fairly judge the situation we need to put ourselves in the shoes of those making the decisions:
  1. Japan was militarily defeated
  2. She would not surrender
  3. An invasion was necessary to bring the war to an end, likely resulting in the loss of tens of thousands of US casualties
  4. As a direct result of aerial bombardment hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians were being killed. Hundreds more would perish in a conventional invasion
  5. You know very little about the long term effects of radiation, but you know this new "A-bomb" technology can kill hundreds of thousands in an instand.
So you have a choice. Continue the war conventionally and watch your citizens die to achieve a goal that is inevitable. Use this new "A-bomb" to shock the japanese into surrender. Knowing that if you're successful fewer Japanese civilians will die than if the war carried on to it's logical conclusion without the deployment of the A-bomb? Honestly, tell me what you would choose? Tell me that you would be happy for your son or daughter to die fighting a defeated enemy when you nation possessed weapon that would end the war within weeks? A weapon that until after the bombings was really seen as nothing more than an immensly powerful conventional weapon.

This doesn't mean we should be proud of the A-bombing of Japan. It's a dark period in the history of the human race, but a necessary evil. And one that illustrates the stupidity of war. One that I think tought us all a very useful lesson and in the long run saved millions of lives. Remember Douglas McArthur wanted to use nuclear weapons against North Korea and China in the Korean war. Thankfully he was removed from command. Do you think the decision would have been so clear cut if the image of two destroyed japanese cities had not been burned into the consciousnes of our political leaders?
 
Last edited:
If anything the USA has proven already they are not to be trusted with them - besides, does anybody have any evidence that Iran is trying to make nuclear weapons?, or is this another WMD (ala Iraq) that people seem to have forgotten about.

America has not used nuclear weapons in anger since Hiroshima and Nagasaki. There hasn't been even a hint of a threat of a nuclear strike since the cold war.

This tells me, especially with long drawn out wars since WW2, that america CAN be trusted with them. What you are saying here, is no different to suggesting modern day Germany cannot be trusted with Jews because of the Holocaust.
 
America has not used nuclear weapons in anger since Hiroshima and Nagasaki. There hasn't been even a hint of a threat of a nuclear strike since the cold war.

This tells me, especially with long drawn out wars since WW2, that america CAN be trusted with them. What you are saying here, is no different to suggesting modern day Germany cannot be trusted with Jews because of the Holocaust.

More importantly, it suggests that the threat of nuclear weaponry should not be held over the head of ordinary citizens, and that nuclear disarmament should be carried out worldwide. It is shocking that America and other countries (such as England) think that they are justified in having nuclear weapons, but then try and prevent others having the same equipment. Fair enough they don't want their enemies being armed in the same manner as them, but, given the fact that they continue to hold the threat of nuclear war over the world by holding their own weapons, they could at least attempt a peaceful solution to the problem.


ps. Mitt Romney is a ****. Anyone who believes that the world is 6,000 years old should not be allowed in any position of power.
 
Which is exactly why Iran wants them also, you can't say it's fine for Israel to have nukes because people want to invade it, but not Iran (Who people want to invade).

Who "wants" to invade Iran?

Anyway, Iran is a signatory of the NPT and so should not be developing nuclear weapons. If it wants them, it should withdraw from the NPT.
 
Obama is as pro war as anyone else. His secretary of state is chomping at the bit to bomb Iran. Obama actually increased military funding to Israel over Bush. I don't think there has been a single presidential candidate in the last decades who hasn't visited the wailing wall and sucked a bunch of Israeli ****.
 
Back
Top Bottom