US official killed in embassy raid in Libya

shoes · 12 Sep 2012 at 14:46

Craterloads said:
Its releveant as what goes around comes around.

Oh I don't disagree with you, in fact I wholeheartedly agree, but the comparison was irrelevant in the context of my comment and the post I was referring to.

Personally I'd like to see a ban on all religion and the USA, and the rest of us can live happily ever after

martian_aphid · 12 Sep 2012 at 14:48

I'm not a fan of the comparisons of governments with small groups of people or even individuals (even though I don't agree with a lot of American foreign policy, or our own in certain cases). The thing is in many cases their targets are not foreigners, which unfortunately does not receive the same press, what that does is fails to highlight that they are often killing their own countrymen because they are of a different faction or tribe or perhaps just an innocent bystander - I don't think you can justify that behaviour because some idiot pilot with a UAV killed some civilians, and if he did it on purpose he should be punished.

RDM · 12 Sep 2012 at 14:49

Craterloads said:
How do you know they killed the ambassador over a cartoon/film, they may just dislike the Americans since they bombed their country to smithereens.

Well it is what they are saying the protests are about, but I guess they may be lying...

Xordium · 12 Sep 2012 at 15:00

Dis86 said:
Yeah the Americans kill civilians - by mistake. I don't think even the most jaded amongst us would say they deliberately target them.

Also, the Americans have made it clear they will do what they must to defend their country and their people from real threats, not from cartoons or films that say nasty mean things!

You are assuming the people are seen as civilians by the people that committed this atrocity. They do not think the same as us to presume that is a consistent fundamental failure on our behalf. They are seen as legitimate targets whether by direct act of proximity to an act. Bin Laden covered this very point in 2002 in an interview with Al-Jazeera.

As to your second point. Strangely enough these people see those two things as being the same in fact what has been committed is a great evil to them as it directly effects their faith and belief which holds more sway than some ideological attachment to a geographical boundary that was forced on them years past and culturally means nothing to an often tribal and nomadic people.

I don't agree with them for one minute in the same way I don't agree with the Western stance on many issues. However, the first step in understanding the Middle East is to understand that most people do not think along Western lines or hold the same views and logic patterns.

G-MAN2004 · 12 Sep 2012 at 15:04

Unidentified armed men stormed the grounds overnight amid uproar among Muslims over a US-produced film said to insult the Prophet Muhammad.

These people really are absolutely pathetic. :rolleyes:

Xordium · 12 Sep 2012 at 15:07

RDM said:
Well it is what they are saying the protests are about, but I guess they may be lying...

I suspect the attacks are nothing to do with that and are politically motivated with that as an excuse to get the crowds baying for blood. Doesn't usually take a lot really.

People often ignore the obvious I think. You have a very young population, disenchanted, poorly educated with widespread massive deprivation. Placed into the same situation over here we have riots albeit on a smaller scale - however we do not have those conditions to such an extent therefore the frequency is reduced. Add into the mix political/religious agitation though and you up the ante even further.

Xordium · 12 Sep 2012 at 15:11

G-MAN2004 said:
These people really are absolutely pathetic.

And over here last year we had massive riots when an armed felon was shot by police. I am sure all those youths rioting were well acquainted with Mark Duggan. I suspect they all went on the rampage because they personally had lost a friend or where they rioting for completely different reasons?

sadbuttrue · 12 Sep 2012 at 15:11

If you banned religion Islam would still exist. It is an all encompassing political, social and judicial system. You cannot separate the religious side from everything else.

Our attempts to bring democracy to the Middle East are futile. Islam is incompatible with Western values such as freedom, liberty and justice "for all".

Mujja · 12 Sep 2012 at 15:12

What's the film causing all the trouble ?

Dis86 · 12 Sep 2012 at 15:13

Mujja said:
What's the film causing all the trouble ?

The Lion King

Erich Kriegler · 12 Sep 2012 at 15:15

Mujja said:
What's the film causing all the trouble ?

Mujja · 12 Sep 2012 at 15:18

Dis86 said:
The Lion King

I would be offended if I was Lion

JeditOjanen · 12 Sep 2012 at 15:19

quickshot89 said:
Just to add, the person who has died was a long term eve player who was once on the CSM, the eve forums are going mental with RIP's

Edit: Someone has already mentioned it was Vile Rat

Vilerat was also a moderator on the Something Awful forums, and he spent a lot of personal time providing people with information about the US diplomatic corps and how it works. His memorial thread there got over 300 responses in a couple of hours, and is now around 1000.

Mujja · 12 Sep 2012 at 15:21

kcon1 said:

Thanks. I can see this getting out of control across the Muslim world.

G-MAN2004 · 12 Sep 2012 at 15:31

Xordium said:
And over here last year we had massive riots when an armed felon was shot by police. I am sure all those youths rioting were well acquainted with Mark Duggan. I suspect they all went on the rampage because they personally had lost a friend or where they rioting for completely different reasons?

Regardless of what they were protesting about (the film or just for the sake of it), they are still pathetic, especially considering people have lost their lives over it.

Xordium · 12 Sep 2012 at 15:34

G-MAN2004 said:
Regardless of what they were protesting about (the film or just for the sake of it), they are still pathetic, especially considering people have lost their lives over it.

Yes, they are but they did not directly attempt to kill these people it appears it came about as a result of their actions - ie not fully intended. Just out of interest and this is no dig at you (as you can see I do agree with you) were you so quick to castigate the rioters over here last year? Their actions could have equally caused such a loss of life.

Erich Kriegler · 12 Sep 2012 at 15:38

Xordium said:
Yes, they are but they did not directly attempt to kill these people it appears it came about as a result of their actions - ie not fully intended. Just out of interest and this is no dig at you (as you can see I do agree with you) were you so quick to castigate the rioters over here last year? Their actions could have equally caused such a loss of life.

They were using RPGs weren't they? How is that not a direct attempt to kill them?

G-MAN2004 · 12 Sep 2012 at 15:42

Xordium said:
were you so quick to castigate the rioters over here last year? Their actions could have equally caused such a loss of life.

I was, yes. Riots are never a good thing.

LizardKing · 12 Sep 2012 at 15:50

Xordium said:
Yes, they are but they did not directly attempt to kill these people it appears it came about as a result of their actions - ie not fully intended. .

from the BBC
"They shot at buildings and threw handmade bombs into the compound"

You dont do that without intent.

Craterloads · 12 Sep 2012 at 15:52

RDM said:
Well it is what they are saying the protests are about, but I guess they may be lying...

Who are they?

Some will have been protesting some may have taken advantage of the situation for their own means, aka killing an american ambassador.

Do you know the armed faction responsible? i think not, so lets not jump to jumpety jump conclusions