Natural Sounding amps

[thedoc46]

I'm curious. Who here prefers the sound of a natural sounding amp with no tone controls, no sub etc, to keep the sound as pure as possible, over music that has added tonal controls and a sub ?

Back in the day, I did a stint working in a hifi shop, and all the best gear was pure, as in no bass or treble controls to play with. At the time I thought anything without tone controls sounded crap, but never admited it to the customers. I much preferred my Yamaha amp at home and REL sub, with bass added. At the time, given i was only 20, i put it down to being a punkass kid at the time, and liking my music with more bass than say a grown-up would want. Plus the older you get the less freq range your eyes have. So I said to myself, these old guffers probably can't hear as well as me..

Anyway, now I'm 40 yrs old, and still into AV & hifi as much as I ever was as a kid, & i still think it sounds crap.

I recently bought a new Yamaha AV receiver, the RX-A2010, which is just one down from their top of the line.

Anyway it has a 'Pure Direct' button to satisfy the audiophiles out there and as you do, and as I have done every time I buy a decent component, i go through an entire range of music along with all the different settings known to man.. But flat / direct / pure or whatever you want to call it, sounds so boring to me, I quickly go about adding bass and using a sub for the low freqs..

Now I'm not someone who listens to drum and bass all day long. But I'm what you would consider someone who enjoys just normal music, from classical to Phil Collins. Even dance if in the mood. Without a sub, my Kef floorstanders sound like they're missing so much.

So my question is, is it only audiophile snobs who demand the sound as pure as it can be.

 

[9designs2]

nothing about being audiophile or a snob, decent matched and correctly set up kit, in a reasonable room very rarely needs artificial enhancement. Not had "Tone Controls" now for close on 30 years, can't say have I ever felt the need...... I have a sub, gets switched on for films and AV use.

You speak of amps, but what front end do you have/use and which Kef speakers....
The front end has to retrieve the bass in the first place, often people over look this and try and add it later with controls and subs etc.

I have set of speaker which go down to 48Hz, before roll off, and another around 28Hz.... covers most instruments.... I normally have issue of boom at room nodes, and trying to cancel it !!!....

 

[thedoc46]

nothing about being audiophile or a snob, decent matched and correctly set up kit, in a reasonable room very rarely needs artificial enhancement. Not had "Tone Controls" now for close on 30 years, can't say have I ever felt the need...... I have a sub, gets switched on for films and AV use.

You speak of amps, but what front end do you have/use and which Kef speakers....
The front end has to retrieve the bass in the first place, often people over look this and try and add it later with controls and subs etc.

I have set of speaker which go down to 48Hz, before roll off, and another around 28Hz.... covers most instruments.... I normally have issue of boom at room nodes, and trying to cancel it !!!....

Kef's are Q70's which go down to 45hz (I've had them since the early 90's)but no need to change.

http://www.audioreview.com/cat/speakers/floorstanding-speakers/kef/q70/prd_411988_1594crx.aspx

My CD player is an Arcam CD72T, but TBH it see's hardly any action. These days I mainly run FLAC's directly from my reciever. My sub is an HSU VTF-2 MK4 http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-2mk4.html and its a MUST to me that this is on... I have the cutover around 80hz

I have a very large front room, but lived in England and in that setup has lived in much smaller rooms. Regardless of my room i've always found myself wanting more in low bass.

I dunno, everytime I'd left it as pure direct, i find myself un-excited by the music, leading me to go for the bass. Each to their own I guess. But for me, the music is sooooooooooooooo much nicer with the added tone and sub. Hence my questioning why ?

 

[Kei]

You get used to it, so when you take it away it doesn't sound as good. Had this problem whilst building my speakers. Tweeters were about 4dB louder than they should have been but i liked the sound. (even though it wasn't right) Set them up as they should have been and they sounded muffled a few hours of music later they sounded fab again as i'd gotten used to the way they sounded.

Anyway, I always have the tone controls on my amp defeated and never use EQ's or loudness as it tends to make everything sound boomy. Speaker positioning and design will play a big part in how they sound too. Tight up against a wall will increase the low end and ported cabinets tend to have peaky bass with very rapid fall-off. Infinite baffle is preferable as it has a nice smooth roll-off with no nasty peakiness. I had a sub in my system a few years ago (another home made job) and took it out to go in the car. I'll admit that i miss it as my home made Kef's only reach down to the mid 40's, that sub did mid 20's and really shook things. (sounds epic in the car though) Spent a fair amount of time rebuilding the crossovers for my celestion ditton 25's, which i can say are speakers that don't need more bass or a sub.

 

[9designs2]

Taken all into account I can see why the sub is helping you....... Large room, budget floor standers ( seem they would have been around 600 pounds ?), reports saying they are bright, using the DAC in AV amp, and an AV amp, All things that will nibble away at the bass and body of the music.
If the sub is the most cost effect way to fix it, don't worry about, go for it... As you move up the ladder things can change though.

 

[thedoc46]

Taken all into account I can see why the sub is helping you....... Large room, budget floor standers ( seem they would have been around 600 pounds ?), reports saying they are bright, using the DAC in AV amp, and an AV amp, All things that will nibble away at the bass and body of the music.
If the sub is the most cost effect way to fix it, don't worry about, go for it... As you move up the ladder things can change though.

lol, you're one of those snobs I was talking about. As i said, even when I use my Arcam CD72, which has little benefit to flac. Speakers are hardly budget. They cost 700quid back in the EARLY nineties. Yes they're not a few thousand like the ones I had the luxury of auditioning when I had access to all the fancy equip (remember I worked in a hifi shop) I played with some high end gear, such as McIntosh etc. But to me, my ears and emotion was left un-impressed. I kind of felt the people that were plunging that sort of money were being suckers, and they could have spent a quarter for an equally sounding setup. Anthing over a 1000GBP per component is getting silly TBH. As I said, just my opinion.

 

[robj20]

Get what sounds good to you, who cares what anyone else thinks.

 

[Mr_Sukebe]

Get what sounds good to you, who cares what anyone else thinks.

+1.
Listen to it however you like.
Have to say that I'm surprised that you went the AV amp route. Really don't rate most of them. Might have been worth trying to track down a Tact amp, which includes digital sound processing (i.e. the modern equivalent of a graphic equaliser). They're pretty good AND include the ability to fiddle to your hearts content.

 

[EllisDJ]

Given a good sounding acoustic room / conditions then no eq would be needed and the purist signal with the minimalist amount of decay is very likely the better sounding, however most rooms are terrible acoustically therefore the sound of the kit is always hindered - you hear the room more than you hear the kit supposedly

AV amps have tried to combat this with room eq and other tech - this does work to a certain degree and can definately improve the sound from an av receiver in music if you ask me if setup correctly. It can still only improve it so much in a bad acoustic room

I also found the sound of a Top end Yamaha av amp a bit lack lustre and changed it out for a Pioneer which is much better - that might be something worth looking into if you are un happy.

I was at What Hifi magazine recently and was chatting with the most technical reviewer - he felt av amps will always be behind pure stereo amps because of manufacturing costs. He knows his tuff trust me
A £1k av amp may have a manufacturing budget of £300 and in that £300 there is loads of circutry, chips dacs, loads of amp module etc etc etc included - with a pure stereo amp there is minimal components therefore the £300 manufatcuring budget allows for much higher quality components resulting in much better sound.
Now if you have a good acoustic room then you will hear all these benefits, however if you dont chances are its the rule of diminishing returns - as the room will hinder the sound. Therefore eq's and other tech is not to be shuned at as it can makes things better - its normally the preamp / amp quality in an av amp that lets it down, not neccesarily the eq system

Although adding to that - using a parametric equalizer like whats in Mccac and YPAO apparently interferes with the time domain and has a negative effect. My current setup I have used Mccac to get as flat a curve as possible - now I hear everything very clearly however I dont get a nice 3D soundtage like I heard in the what hifi test room.
In there there was clear seperation between vocals, piano, bass - I mean really seperatyed and the soundstage went back approx 6 feet where you could hear the places of the band in certain music - it was amazing - now their room is acoustically perfect and it was a high end system I was listening to so that all played its part.
I am working on my room acoustics soon and will report back if it has got me anywhere near close to what I heard there.
I currently feel that equalizing will allow you to hear everything clearly but at the expense of a potential beutiful 3d soundstage that a stereo amp would potentially give.
I could be wrong - it could just be the poor qaulity pre amp / amps in my LX83 or it could be my room acoustics - I dont think its my source, speakers or cabling, in fact I know its not them

 

[Yaayuh!]

Get what sounds good to you, who cares what anyone else thinks.

I consider myself an audiophile, given how much i care about the quality of my audio setups and amount of my time and money i spend on it compared to other things in life.
However, i will always agree with that statement. Everyone has their own tastes and not everyone hears frequencies the same as everyone else.

If you like how something sounds then stick to it, that's all that matters. Though you can try other things, take peoples recommendations but never as gospel.
Just because someone says that rear porting against a wall is horrible, subwoofers are not necessary, speaker wire needs to be £10+ and meter, anything below 24/96 is worthless, your DAC doesn't have a separate PSU etc etc Doesn't mean a thing, what matters is that you've taken the time to find something you feel sounds more than acceptable.

 

[Martynt74]

I agree, a sub sounds like it would help, properly set up it doesnt nessecerily have to sound un-natural and it can very much add to the music.

 

[9designs2]

Would agree with all the comments on what sounds right to the owner is what they should stick with... it’s about enjoying the music after all.

That said, a comment above is also very relevant, you do get accustomed and tuned to one sound, and believe it to be “correct” or better. When you hear an alternative it often just sounds wrong...... That’s why it’s good to hear other systems and other people’s views, that’s when you can become more objective about how your own system performs. Though you do need some time to acclimatise, 10 second AB demo’s just disappoint. (Will be going to the Whittlebury show soon, interesting to see a mix of systems and sounds).

As often discussed the room is biggest variable, and the most over looked. Some rooms will boost bass, some will attenuate it at certain frequencies....
You really have to go to the effort of measuring the effect if you’re going to get serious about it all.... Which if the equipment costs thousands, then spending a hundred or so on say the XZT measurement mic kit is small percentage of the system cost. (I have one it’s very handy)

My preferred route is passive room correction, and leave the electronics as untouched as possible (does that make me Audiophile snob ?? LOL).... Something I’m about to start on in my room. I know I have around a 14db 48Hz bass spike to solve.... so won’t be easy.

A while back the bother-in law bought a pair of floorstanders, around 400 quid, could have been Kef or Mission, woofer +ABR design, an Onkyo AV amp and an iPod docked into it..... he also complained of lacking in bass, and cranked the controls up, and wants a sub...... despite the spec and the no apparent reason why, it produced less bass even with the controls turned up than my 20 year old DIY built Dynaudio speakers, that are basically a large stand mount design.
So maybe it’s not all snobbery .......You pays your money and makes your choice.

 

[thedoc46]

I agree, room is by far the biggest variable. My last home had high vaulted ceilings, tile floor and large glass patio doors and it was a horror story for any music. So much so that I didn't even bother listening to it, knowing i struggled to enjoy it.

My new place is much much better. Finally a flat ceiling again, though still 10ft high ! I have double lined curtains, I let the wife loose with a CC, to go out and spend on a huge rug, leather sofa's and tall heavy curtains, and I've put up as much canvas artwork as possible. Obviously the decor has to suit the home, so i've only got so much to work with. Ideally i'd like carpets but living where i do, that's really a no no.. So for me, given i've not got carpets, really the real high end stuff (even with tone and sub) would be a waste of money.

I will say though, even when auditioning the real expensive stuff, in rooms made just for auditioning and selling, i still found them lacking. Subs were a no no, and tone controls, FORGET IT !!! even in the perfect enviroment (as much as you can outside of a studio) I was left un-impressed. For myself personally, after auditioning the best !, I've still always gone with an AV amp, but top of the line, because I do 70% movie and 30% music, and the high end Yamaha have always catered for this. The engineers worked hard to bypass all the digital trickery with direct pure, on most of what they've been making over the yrs. I remember on my old DSP-A1, the hifi press were left very impressed with its pure direct music ability. I never run any DSP, but do always love the warm sound of the sub and i find it complements the music so so much. I've even done a blind test with a random couldn't care less about what cost what, individual (aka the wife) and said what sounds better to you this or that !!! Direct or with tone and sub on, and she agreed the latter was more enjoyable. OK so that's not the be end all of surveys, but I reckon you could put 100 regular people off the street and ask them what sounded nicer and most would agree on the extra warmth of a sub. Apart from the audiophile snobs See where i'm getting at ?

 

[StonedPenguin]

I recently bought a Yamaha A-S500 (Natural Sound Intergrated Amplifier) It says on the front, For £250 it was an absolute bargain

 

[lucid]

lol, you're one of those snobs I was talking about....

...I had the luxury of auditioning when I had access to all the fancy equip (remember I worked in a hifi shop) I played with some high end gear, such as McIntosh etc. But to me, my ears and emotion was left un-impressed. I kind of felt the people that were plunging that sort of money were being suckers, and they could have spent a quarter for an equally sounding setup. Anthing over a 1000GBP per component is getting silly TBH. As I said, just my opinion.

...I will say though, even when auditioning the real expensive stuff, in rooms made just for auditioning and selling, i still found them lacking. Subs were a no no, and tone controls, FORGET IT !!! even in the perfect enviroment (as much as you can outside of a studio) I was left un-impressed. For myself personally, after auditioning the best !, I've still always gone with an AV amp....

...but I reckon you could put 100 regular people off the street and ask them what sounded nicer and most would agree on the extra warmth of a sub. Apart from the audiophile snobs See where i'm getting at ?

What floats your boat is what floats your boat, but I'm not happy with the epithet of "snob" any more than I think you'd be if you were referred to as a "meathead bass freak". I think I'd prefer to be referred to as a purist, thank you very much.

Everything you've written in the thread simply points to the fact that you're looking for something different in the sound compared to us purists. That's fine. It would be a boring world if we all liked the same things.

When I bought my first bit of decent hi-fi gear at the age of 14 back in the early 80's I had read all the mags and knew all the buzz words. I was ready to talk about transparency, and veiling and all the rest of the hi-fi bollix that mags spouted. But the dealer got me to listen to the music, not the Hi-Fi. He taught me to listen for things like the musician's passion and how they play together and off each other. That was a bit of a revelation, and the experience has stayed with me.

I've listened to a lot of gear since for my own use, and also when I was repping, and as a retailer of Hi-Fi in my own right. There's a lot of stuff that does "Hi-Fi", but very little that does music. What's more worrying is the number of dealers who seem to simply equate expensive with good, but that's another story.

To get back on track, I suppose the reason why purists start out and continue down the path of no tone controls is because there are far too many compromises going straight out for maximum bass extension. Speakers big enough and yet agile enough to do deep bass cost a fortune and need some equally beefy and expensive amps. The alternative of chucking a sub in the middle of the the speaker line affects those timing rhythm and pace things that we find so important in the midrange. Driving a sub with a dedicated SW line out presents challenges of the additional electronics.

 

[marl]

I'm curious. Who here prefers the sound of a natural sounding amp with no tone controls, no sub etc, to keep the sound as pure as possible, over music that has added tonal controls and a sub ?

So my question is, is it only audiophile snobs who demand the sound as pure as it can be.

Given your use of the word 'snob,' I'm thinking that you've an axe to grind and are more interested in starting a row than having a discussion. I'm also somewhat confused by the first part of your post as quoted above...

So let me ask you this, when you listen to a recording of your favourite artist what do you want to hear?

1 - Do you want to hear an accurate reproduction of their music which is as close to the original as possible?

or

2 - Do you want to change their sound by adding or subtracting bass or treble?

I suspect most 'audiophile snobs,' would choose option 1, what about you?

 

[kilohawk]

I agree with the OP on the sub' subject, I prefer a lot of music with the sub as it brings the Bass of the music out into the same perceived level as the rest of it, and with dub-step/dance a sub is a must in my opinion.

I use what some would class as budget, arcam a65+ cd72 player Kef Q30 with Kef PSW2000 (which is in no way budget if you look at how much this stuff costs compared to what 99% of people use) well over £1000 new.

All depends on the music, room, main speakers, volume TBH.


Theres some music which I refuse to accept normal systems can convey to the listener without the use of a sub, why would they be on sale if they weren't needed?

Oh, i listen to mainly rock and alternative by the way

 

[Yaayuh!]

Given your use of the word 'snob,' I'm thinking that you've an axe to grind and are more interested in starting a row than having a discussion. I'm also somewhat confused by the first part of your post as quoted above...

So let me ask you this, when you listen to a recording of your favourite artist what do you want to hear?

1 - Do you want to hear an accurate reproduction of their music which is as close to the original as possible?

or

2 - Do you want to change their sound by adding or subtracting bass or treble?

I suspect most 'audiophile snobs,' would choose option 1, what about you?

Audiophile snobs exist IMO, there are many different kinds of audiophile, some so extreme i really don't understand. I do however respect the passion and knowledge people have in music and audio technology.

Not every album is produced well, that's subject to opinion depending on the listener. Also, some rips are not exact rips from CD/Vinyl.
Speaking from personal experience of hearing issues from childhood, countless amounts of hearing tests and 4 sets of grommets. I know from first hand experience that not everyone hears things the same. Me for example, i hear deeper tones more than higher tones. Changing the tone, fiddling equalizers is a must for me and i'm sure it's a must for others.
Not to mention your surroundings/listening environment, treatment can be expensive and wives complain about foam all over the walls and ceiling..

 

[Martynt74]

Not to mention your surroundings/listening environment, treatment can be expensive and wives complain about foam all over the walls and ceiling..

One tip i saw on another hifi forum was to get some accoustic foam and fix it to the back of a canvas picture (like what you buy cheap in Ikea). Probably not the last word but probably has some effectiveness without the hassle or major work.

Link

Cheap and wife friendly if your room requires it

 

[Yaayuh!]

One tip i saw on another hifi forum was to get some accoustic foam and fix it to the back of a canvas picture (like what you buy cheap in Ikea). Probably not the last word but probably has some effectiveness without the hassle or major work.

Link

Cheap and wife friendly if your room requires it

Brilliant idea! Will have to see if it's still as effective though, lacking deep ridges and all you may require it (depending on setup and room).