US official killed in embassy raid in Libya

[[TW]Fox]

Why is being offended justification to murder and destroy? If its not, then what relevence does your point have?

I can't think of any justification for that sort of behaviour. I mean burning down a Labanese mans business because he happened to buy a franchise from KFC, who happens to have its HQ in the same country as perhaps somebody who made a ridiculously pathetic film might have come from?

Really?

 

[[TW]Fox]

Well if they killed a few of them, there would be less soldiers to attack you back. Surely this concept is not beyond you.

We are talking about the United States Army. It has over 1 million people in it. Killing some of them does not protect you from being attacked by them. Infact it virtually guarantees you will be!

 

[Craterloads]

You keep bringing up the EDL as they are some sort of similar group to the protestors murdering their way across the middle east. However they haven't actually killed anyone and most of the violence tends to be precipitated by counter protests by UAF and the like. I think more arrests have been made against UAF than the EDL.

Im bringing up the EDL because they have resorted to violence and thuggery to essentially what are words. Which Neil thinks can’t do no harm so why get violent about it and its only Muslims who turn to violence because of "words"

If it wasn’t for the police protection for the protestors at the repatriation, what do you think would have happened?. There would likely have been a few people dead.

 

[Pawnless Endgame]

Why is being offended justification to murder and destroy?

This.

Take Life of Brian for example. It's a religious satire about Jesus. Sure, there was an backlash from angered Christian groups, but they don't go around killing people do they?

 

[Craterloads]

Why is being offended justification to murder and destroy? If its not, then what relevence does your point have?

I can't think of any justification for that sort of behaviour. I mean burning down a Labanese mans business because he happened to buy a franchise from KFC, who happens to have its HQ in the same country as perhaps somebody who made a ridiculously pathetic film might have come from?

Really?

It doesnt and i am 100% against these protests and violence, its just stupid. Im just pointing out words can do harm and freedom of speech comes with responsibility.

 

[Craterloads]

We are talking about the United States Army. It has over 1 million people in it. Killing some of them does not protect you from being attacked by them. Infact it virtually guarantees you will be!

In a war, your goal is to kill as many of the enemy as possible. Maybe if they kill loads the US may pull out quicker.

 

[[TW]Fox]

Im just pointing out words can do harm and freedom of speech comes with responsibility.

I dont think anyone has said otherwise?

 

[Craterloads]

I dont think anyone has said otherwise?

Niel has, who i was replying to and so has naffa in another thread linked to this topic. He claims people shouldnt be offended by words or pictures, since thats all they are.

 

[Robbo]

Niel has, who i was replying to and so has robbo in another thread linked to this topic. He claims people shouldnt be offended by words or pictures, since that all they are.

Err, where?

 

[Craterloads]

Err, where?

OOPs sorry naffa

 

[Xordium]

We are talking about the United States Army. It has over 1 million people in it. Killing some of them does not protect you from being attacked by them. Infact it virtually guarantees you will be!

But often the amount of body bags arriving home has altered their foreign policy far more than any territorial gains could do. No Western politician is able to sustain leadership when the media light is shone on those planes arriving.

However, you are correct even if that was the aim Bastion would not be the first target to spring to mind. Although who knows this is probably being orchestrated by Quds or a similar entity. The dates and timing are rather convenient.

 

[NeilF]

And im sure muslims in arab countries wouldnt expect to see anti-islamic films purposely dubbed in arabic on thier news stations.

By that logic, then surely the news stations are even more guilty than the producers of the video? Without them, the incitement would not have happened.

Not as blatant, did you not read he had it dubbed it to arabic, lied to the cast abouts its agenda, hid his identity and pretended to be an israeli jew, the film was backed/financed by right wing extreme fundementalist groups, how much more blatant do you want.

I've read some of that, and differing accounts. So who knows at the moment. The outcome - for any rational person - is it's a silly video with silly comments.

Again my only conclusion is you are being purposely ignorant.

Lovely! Thank you. Maybe you need to just reevaluate some your conclusions.

A lot of people dont give a **** about dead britsih soldiers, why should they tip toe around them.

I've explained my opinion on what I consider a poor comparison.

Because Muslims and British people or any other culture/people take offense to different things. Britain is a secular society and most british people dont give a **** about religion, whilst muslims do.

Fair comment.

So if I'm correct, you're suggesting we should change our behaviour to fit in with what Muslims want? ie: We should not question or mock that belief so in order not to offend this one faith?

Have you considered maybe, just like seemingly every other faith has managed on the planet, that just maybe, the owness is in the other direction? Maybe Muslims should accept that other people do not hold their belief(s) and they should be permitted to express this how ever they see fit?

If we consider the debacle a few years back, as an analogy, where people were being killed over cartoons. Your suggestion would seem to be everyone should change to fit in with Muslims? No one should draw an questionable cartoon of Mohammed for example. This is where we clearly differ, as I'd suggest the change is in the other direction personally.

 

[Xordium]

If we consider the debacle a few years back as an analogy with people being killed over cartoons. Your suggestion would seem to be everyone should change to fit in with Muslims? This is where we clearly differ, as I'd suggest the change is in the other direction personally.

Well it is far easier to stop drawing cartoon deliberately designed to goad than to give up a way of life and a belief in god. You are also forgetting the third alternative (the one that I believe in) that the Western world and the Islamic countries of the Middle East have too little common ground to ever really comprehend each other and the sooner people accept that and both stop trying to change each other the better. Consensus can't always be found not is it always needed. We need that region for resources and little else. As long as we get the resources we need maybe need to turn our eye away from how they come to us and accept that our morality and system of governance is not universally applicable or the best way for all. We did it very well before - divide and conquer - divide and unite hasn't really worked out in that region ever.

 

[Craterloads]

By that logic, then surely the news stations are even more guilty than the producers of the video? Without them, the incitement would not have happened.

I agree, as are news stations like sky news and the BBC for constantly reporting the matter.

I've read some of that, and differing accounts. So who knows at the moment. The outcome - for any rational person - is it's a silly video with silly comments.

Lovely! Thank you. Maybe you need to just reevaluate some your conclusions.

Have a look at any of the major news papers, its really not that difficult.

Fair comment.

So if I'm correct, you're suggesting we should change our behaviour to fit in with what Muslims want? ie: We should not question or mock that belief so in order not to offend this one faith?

I dont see how you conclude, that i am suggesting this?

Your welcome to question, thats great, even mocking do it if you wish (if you think mocking dead british soldiers is acceptable)

But this video was niether, it was "derogatory, disrespectful and inflammatory". as described by Hilary Clinton and Sky News. This is different from mocking or questioning, its quite a clear distinction, which you are failing to see.

Have you considered maybe, just like seemingly every other faith has managed on the planet, that just maybe, the owness is in the other direction? Maybe Muslims should accept that other people do not hold their belief(s) and they should be permitted to express this how ever they see fit?

What you seem to be missing is that this all ready happens, and this is all ready the case. You can and do express your view, expressing your view is different from being "derogatory, disrespectful and inflammatory". Ive heard many jokes about burkhas and muslims on BBC, heck franky boyle came out with a cracker about burkhas that i had a good chuckle to. The difference has been explained to you.

If we consider the debacle a few years back, as an analogy, where people were being killed over cartoons. Your suggestion would seem to be everyone should change to fit in with Muslims? No one should draw an questionable cartoon of Mohammed for example. This is where we clearly differ, as I'd suggest the change is in the other direction personally.

No absolutely not, violence towards this is retarded. Although i think a line has to be drawn, from where freedom of speech becomes derogatory and inflammatory. I couldnt care if you draw a cartoon, if you stick a bomb on the cartoons head and write pedo on it, then it becomes derogatory and inflammatory. Thats not freedom of speech.

 

[NeilF]

Well it is far easier to stop drawing cartoon deliberately designed to goad.

But it's not as black and white as that is it.

One persons "goad" is another persons humour or question.

What's easier, for everyone on the planet to try and second guess what may or may not offend one particular religion. Or for that religion to come to terms with the modern world?

And it's not just cartoons of course. We've seen violent reactions over all manner of things.

And don't pretent we're talking about people doing things on purpose to goad. Sometime it may be so, but we've also seen many cases where it's far more innocuous and questionable things that have resulted in violence.


As regards the cartoon. If we look at your comment, here we see people, once again, with the finger of blame not at the people and system behind the violence, but instead saying, no, it's that piece of paper with a drawing on it to blame! Yes, the one drawn by someone over there in another country/culture a thousand miles away. That's to blame. They need to bend to Islam for some reason?

Cannot you not see why many see it questionable when you appear to suggest the majority should change their ways for the seemingly intolerant fanatical minority?

 

[Craterloads]

As regards the cartoon. If we look at your comment, here we see people, once again, with the finger of blame not at the people and system behind the violence, but instead saying, no, it's that piece of paper with a drawing on it to blame! Yes, the one drawn by someone over there in another country/culture a thousand miles away. That's to blame. They need to bend to Islam for some reason?

Thats not true, its both. Mainly the protestors but some blame has to go on the creator of the films which has been described as hateful, derogatory and inflammatory, which isn acceptabe by british law as proven by todays events and many others.

 

[Xordium]

As regards the cartoon. If we look at your comment, here we see people, once again, with the finger of blame not at the people and system behind the violence, but instead saying, no, it's that piece of paper with a drawing on it to blame! Yes, the one drawn by someone over there in another country/culture a thousand miles away. That's to blame. They need to bend to Islam for some reason?

No if you were to read my comment rather than what you think it said you would not draw that conclusion, stop foaming at the mouth and stop building strawmen.

I said this; "Well it is far easier to stop drawing cartoon deliberately designed to goad than to give up a way of life and a belief in god"

One involves putting down a pen and stop using a piece of paper.

The other involves changing your whole life ...

 

[NeilF]

No if you were to read my comment rather than what you think it said you would not draw that conclusion, stop foaming at the mouth and stop building strawmen.

I said this; "Well it is far easier to stop drawing cartoon deliberately designed to goad than to give up a way of life and a belief in god"

One involves putting down a pen and stop using a piece of paper.

The other involves changing your whole life ...

I read your comment, and replied quite clearly and politely. Please try to do the same.

Maybe you should have read my comment more carefully. As I clearly said, sticking to the carton comparison. You suggest everyone should put down their pens and not goad. But where is this line? How do we magically know when we've gone to far? Better for Muslims to understand the world cannot revolve around their beliefs and instead ignore and tolerate questionable material, like other faiths seem to be able to do.

I'm sure Salman Rushdie for example could have done with yard stick you propose. Your suggestion would be he should have put his pen down and not written his book? Or wouldn't it have made more sense for some people to show more tolerance and not fire bomb book shops?

 

[Craterloads]

You suggest everyone should put down their pens and not goad. But where is this line? How do we magically know when we've gone to far? Better for Muslims to understand the world cannot revolve around their beliefs and instead ignore and tolerate questionable material, like other faiths seem to be able to do.

Is it really that difficult?

Draw a cartoon, mocking etc what ever = fine, do what you like

Draw a cartoon, stick a bomb on his head and write pedo and stick it online = gone too far

Also context plays a part, do it at home with your friends and family, go ahead. Stick it online for the world to see = too far. An example would be

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/8020296/Six-arrested-in-Gateshead-over-Koran-burning.html

If they had done it and not recorded it in their own privacy = fine

Filming and sticking it online just to provoke it becomes inflammatory and has crossed the line, as proven by the fact they were arrested.

I’m struggling to see why you can’t comprehend this.

Where do we draw the line, ask Azhar Ahmed or you tell me.

 

[NeilF]

Is it really that difficult?

Draw a cartoon, mocking etc what ever = fine, do what you like

Draw a cartoon, stick a bomb on his head and write pedo and stick it online = gone too far

I’m struggling to see why you can’t comprehend this.

It's clear to see you're struggling to comprehend the problem. But it's really quite simple...

You're proposing a line, where before it OK, and after will insult Muslims too much (sparking violence?). My point is where is this line? Does every cartoonist consult with an expert before printing? Does every author consult with an expert before publishing? Does every film maker consult with an expert before distributing? Because clearly everyone's value set and opinion is different. Who's to say by my standards I produce the funniest religious cartoon ever, but which ultimately offends our Muslim fanatics into burning down buildings again and I find a fatwa on my head.

If we consider Salmon Rushdie for example, how was he to know he'd gone past your proposed line?


Basically it's impossible to draw your line in the middle ground you propose. The answer is simple, rather than forcing media to bend in some vain attempt to appease one sect of religious fanatics, instead for the culture supporting those fanatics to change to fit the modern world. Who tells these idiots burning buildings its OK? What in the culture is teaching/supporting this?

And before you get carried away and build a strawman, I'm not suggesting any and all things go. Of course outright religious hatred etc should not be acceptable, but that's another discussion, if only because - as previously discussed - it's incredibly hard to draw these lines. Note: It may well be even the video in question actually falls into this category - I can't say. But I doubt it.

But we're not talking about just that video, but an overall intolerance of a fanatical few Muslims who expect the world media to bend to meet their religious ideals and seem to believe violence is acceptable, which frankly is a little outdated and the only solution is for them to realise this.