Natural Sounding amps

The way I see it is with a lower frequency, you feel it more in your chest. Something that can't really be re-produced on just two regular 45hz to 20khz (the norm) speakers. It really adds warmth to the music.

A bit like adding salt to your steak. A steak with nothing on its a little bland. Add some salt, and its 10x as nice!! Same goes for music. However a purist doesn't want to add a little flavor to his music, and turns his nose at anyone who does. Seems a little snobbish to me, wouldn't you say?
 
thedoc46 said:
The way I see it is with a lower frequency, you feel it more in your chest. Something that can't really be re-produced on just two regular 45hz to 20khz (the norm) speakers. It really adds warmth to the music.

A bit like adding salt to your steak. A steak with nothing on its a little bland. Add some salt, and its 10x as nice!! Same goes for music. However a purist doesn't want to add a little flavor to his music, and turns his nose at anyone who does. Seems a little snobbish to me, wouldn't you say?
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I can appreciate your point about the sub adding warmth, and if we were talking about music played via an AV system them the sub would in most cases be a no-brainer.

I can only speak for myself, but where you and I diverge is this idea of "taste". The salt analogy doesn't work for me. I don't need to chuck salt all over my food just so it doesn't taste bland. If that's what's needed then the ingredients or the way it is prepared is wrong in my eyes. Al little salt brings out the flavour - Yes - but the steak should be good to go when it reaches the table, or else what's the point? The sub isn't salt. It's relish, and relish is great if I'm eating certain things, but all things.

The difference between is and why you keep referring to us as snobby is that you just don't "get" what it is we are listening for and why adding the sub takes something else very important to us away from the music. Most of us purists would kill for the frequency extension we'd get from a sub....But not at the expense of other things more important.
 
thedoc46 said:
However a purist doesn't want to add a little flavor to his music, and turns his nose at anyone who does. Seems a little snobbish to me, wouldn't you say?
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The only person in this thread that's turning his nose up at anything is you. Seems you are the snob to me, wouldn't you say?
 
So, would go into a Michelin star resturant, order a fine steak and when it arrives would ask the waiter to fetch the salt and pepper as the chef knew less on how to season ;)
Probably should have gone to McDonald's.... They use a lot of salt. :p
 
9designs2 said:
So, would go into a Michelin star resturant, order a fine steak and when it arrives would ask the waiter to fetch the salt and pepper as the chef knew less on how to season ;)
Probably should have gone to McDonald's.... They use a lot of salt. :p
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That's a poor example. Again, not everyone likes the same tastes. Some people like a peppered steak, some people like different steak cuts, just because it's been cooked by the best doesn't mean it's to everyone's taste.
Its actually a good example come to think of it, of some audiophiles are like fine diners, but not all.
 
9designs2 said:
So, would go into a Michelin star resturant, order a fine steak and when it arrives would ask the waiter to fetch the salt and pepper as the chef knew less on how to season ;)
Probably should have gone to McDonald's.... They use a lot of salt. :p
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That depends on whether you want your food the way you prefer it/ are used to it or if you want to appreciate the way that the chef thinks is best.

Ultimately it comes down to personal taste, and what is important to you when you are listening.
 
Disco Boy said:
Ultimately it comes down to personal taste, and what is important to you when you are listening.
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Which is what most of us here have said all along. What I and I think others object to is being called "snobs" because we prefer not to garnish with subwoofer.

Anyway, as far as I'm concerned this thread in its present form has run it's course. "People like different things" shocker really isn't much of a news story. Particularly when the author insults the reader for not taking the same view.
 
It's a choice you make, do you want to listen to the music the way you are happy with or do you want to listen to it the way the artist/sound engineer mastered it? Problem is, due to room acoustics, speaker choice and even the amplifier you can't listen to it exactly as it sounded when mastered as it isn't possible. (studio headphones are the closest you'd get)

Having built enough kit over the years, the problems you run into now are that speakers are deigned primarily for their looks over their sound which is wrong. When a 40 year old pair of speakers can give brand new mid-high end kit a spanking you know something must be wrong with the way they design things these days. (15" tannoy dual concentrics, celestion Ditton 66's to name just 2) The main reason you need subwoofers these days is because people don't want large speakers clogging up their living rooms, so manufacturers make the cabinets tall and thin meaning that the usual driver sizes range from 4-6.5". A pair of 6.5" speakers do not even equal one 8" driver let alone a 12". (same story for an 8" driver, a pair is less than a single 12") The high end vintage speakers used to come with drivers from 8-15" and could do everything from sub frequencies up to 20K+. (must have heard the term "no replacement for displacement") Horn loading will certainly improve things for smaller speakers as do reflex/transmission line designs but none will make up for the minuscule displacement of miniature woofers. (plus horn loading for LF needs quite a large area due to the wavelengths involved. Porting and transmission line both have their own separate problems too, and ABR's have become quite uncommon now.

Theoretically all amplifiers "should" sound the same, biggest reason that they don't, particularly integrated amps, is that the manufacturers introduce their own signature sound via particular component choice etc. (even by introducing even harmonic distortions) The articles to look at for this was The carver challenge and an old electronics weekly article capacitor sound.

Just do as you are though, listen to what you like the way you like it, only if it dissatisfies you or you hear something you like more should you change it. I like my vintage equipment and i'll stick with it, regardless of what people say, it was made in a different age where things were engineered to last and a dynamic sound was the goal. I will never go tubes as i think they are an outdated technology that is a waste of money. (a tube amp is one big tone control that imparts a big effect on the sound, you either love it or hate it) I'd never knock anyone who likes them though.
 
I agree with Kei .... especially with regard to 'vintage' equipment .... when a design can't be improved upon in come the marketeers to put spin on new models in a hope you'll rush out and buy the latest and greatest .... deep colour anyone ?

Audiophile snobbery - What happens to someone when they think they know better than others after reading a few misleading advertisements and a bunch of mags full of reviews based on clouded judgement and pseudo science.
Get someone to listen to a uber-expensive reference system that's not had their views clouded by this rubbish and they wouldn't be able to tell the difference with the same speakers backed up by a well made budget system.

Golden ears lol .... mine are sort of pinkish most of the time .... perhaps they'd glow red if i'd paid some of the stupid amounts of coin you see some audio kit up for.

What i'd like to see in an amp review - Made by 'manufacturer x', who have great customer care and a 3 yr warranty. The amp adds nothing noticable to the sound. Measured power output to confirm they can drive your speakers .... then the price ... cheaper the better :)

With a review this long the mag would be able to fit more advertisments in ... so i can read about the latest dilithium crystaline soaked copper cable that offers a more delicate soundstage .... only £2k per metre lol.

Ooops, nearly forgot the ops question .... i listen to music with the sub 2.1, films in 5.1 and Music vids 5.1 with maybe some surround effects like 'Concert Hall' to draw me in. If i want to listen to music the 'pure direct' way i go watch the group live :)
 
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By the same measure then people who buy Apple products are snobs......... But that seems much more socially acceptable.....
 
negger said:
Get someone to listen to a uber-expensive reference system that's not had their views clouded by this rubbish and they wouldn't be able to tell the difference with the same speakers backed up by a well made budget system.
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Sorry, but what a complete load of old bollix.
 
robj20 said:
Get what sounds good to you, who cares what anyone else thinks.
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this

you know yourself when something feels better.

my preference is also for bass being barely felt in the ears just the body (if that makes sense) don't like muddy wallowy bass. I have a sub and its there to create a stable platform for the rest of the sound to ride on and not to swallow up the rest of the audio.

i have found that having a proper sub set at the correct levels physically improves the whole sound even the high frequencies.

BTW incredibly detailed audio, that's as clean as the air it travels through still wont move you if your into rhythm and bass and that lack of bass isn't due to cheap speakers its due to the lack of a dedicated sub woofer even very expensive speakers can lack proper low end extension and impact.
 
negger said:
Get someone to listen to a uber-expensive reference system that's not had their views clouded by this rubbish and they wouldn't be able to tell the difference with the same speakers backed up by a well made budget system.
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If you've done this test yourself, and don't hear any differences... then I envy you more than you could possibly believe.. you truely are a lucky man!
 
Lucky ? .... or just a skeptic ....

http://www.hometheaterfocus.com/receivers/amplifier-sound-quality.aspx

After reading stuff like this years ago I tried a few simple tests with mine and my mates amps .... and was surprised to come to the same conclusion, I was gutted at first tbh .... like many others I've also paid far too much for audio kit.

Audio manufacturers need you to buy their kit, continously (upgrade-itis ?) ..... so they try to convince us that they've improved the amp in some way, every year, year in year out lol .... but basic amp design hasn't really changed much since the beginning of audio electronics.

Google 'audio myths' .... and amp design, all the info you need is there, you just need to read up on it and make your own mind up.
 
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