I will 'just chip' in here with my ponderings regarding the right/wrong argument purely within the context of the physical and a few other things.
We are animals, and our sexual function is primarily for the purposes of reproduction, but as society developed sex has become a 'past time', a leisure activity if you like. We are one of the very few species on the planet that have sex for fun.
Now, post pubescent females are biologically capable of reproducing, and therefore
physically 'mature' enough for sex, that's just a fact whether we like it or not. It seems to me that it is only the addition of 'society' into the equation that makes something right or wrong and not just with regard to sexual activity with younger people, but everything we do. We all think "no way - jail lies down that road!", or "thats just plain wrong!".
But why is that? Is that because its something we actually feel? Or is it something we say because we are required to because it is the accepted social response unless you want to be branded some kind of freak? It is true that any individual feeling any attraction at all to someone under age or a lot younger than themselves is a taboo. If they should feel that way, however briefly, do we view them as some how mentally deficient? I think we do and what interests me is why we do. It kind of reminds me of how homosexuality used to be viewed - the immediate response was "its wrong". Even gay people would say it publicly. I think a deep look into why we all respond in the way we do would make an interesting discussion, especially when we talk about previously taboo/illegal things that have become socially acceptable and/or legal.
In the animal world, you don't see male animals passing up on the chance to reproduce with a sexually mature enough and receptive female because she is mentally too young! I rather suspect that centuries ago our species would have been the same. However when you add in the element of sex for fun, it becomes a different situation entirely.
Why is it "wrong" for a 30 year old male to have sex with a 15 year old female? Because the law says so. It is the law that says she is a minor, irrelevant of whether she is sexually receptive, has a figure like a 22 year old and a fairly mature mindset. It is illegal, end of. We all accept that. But does that stop us thinking she is 'fit'? Surely the fact we have had that response in first place says a lot and I think guys who pretend that some of the more physically mature younger females are "not attractive" are kidding themselves but fooling nobody!
I think because the law says so, society develops the same view, and over time such a view becomes ingrained into the fabric of public perception. It becomes the subject of a common moral view point. Like all of us in here - if we are asked the question whether it is wrong, purely on moral grounds, we will all say yes! But I wonder why that is. Why do we hold that view point? Is it simply because of the law and consequences if caught? Or is it a mixture of the law with social norms that have influenced our moral compass? If the law changed to facilitate legal sex with anyone over the age of 14 would our moral compass still view such acts as wholly wrong? I think initially it would, but after 100 years? I'm not so convinced. Or is it a biological switch that
most of us have that past a certain age, we just find younger males/females a 'no go' and those who do not have that switch, like the maths teacher, come unstuck under the prevailing social and legal norms?
Although it strikes me as strangely ironic that as a society we are sexualising the female form, and encouraging young females to dress and behave provocatively and yet when a male shows sexual interest we say it is only OK as long as he isn't too much older. Obviously the law must have an absolute, so the age of consent is 16 - but even a 16 year old sleeping with a 28 year old would be severely frowned upon, even though it is legal and I wonder why that is. Perhaps we need to accept that just as some younger people are far more mature than their years suggest, it is entirely possible that works in reverse and an older person could be closer in mental maturity to a younger person. So is it wrong if they make each other happy? Should they be scorned?
I think on a purely physical level there is not a man alive who would not be in the slight bit tempted by a more mentally mature, young, sexy, nubile 19 year old female coming on to them and, frankly, I think anyone who says different is lying!
I don't think that temptation dies and disappears if the female actually turns out to be 15, it just becomes illegal, and so most people would modify their behaviour accordingly.
I also think there are far more people who find 'younger' females attractive than will admit it. I tend to think that based on the absolute saturation of the porn industry with "barely legal" "Teen" content. The logical conclusion is that men in general, and a lot of them so it would seem, like 'teenage' girls. Indeed as a society we generally prefer the female form to be young and pert. Now when that female form is young and pert but legally
too young we modify our behaviour accordingly, but the initial 'how you doin' reaction was there and there is no getting away from that. Yes we feel embarrassed and a little bit "ewww" but it was there. So the question is why? Is it wrong that it was there?
I don't tend to think so because it was a natural instinctive reaction and one which we all have whether we choose to be honest about it or not. As a species we sum up potential sexual partners automatically as soon as we look at them. Furthermore I don't think it is something that can be easily controlled. I think where wrong enters the equation is when someone acts on that initial physical reaction inappropriately, most often in the form of pursuing it.
There you go, I have just branded it as wrong, and in my own mind that thought process was automatic. I didn't even stop to think about it - it was an almost immediate response, so I actually wonder if there is a biological element involved that effects our subconscious thought process or whether it is that our minds have become indoctrinated by the social norm to the point that the response actually becomes an extension of moral peer pressure? For instance, how often do we hear "yeah as soon as I found out she was 15 I wouldn't be interested". This implies that if we didn't find out, we would be in bed with her and having no moral crisis at all! It happens and certainly does not mean someone is a paedophile. Indeed I know several people who have met a girl in a club and didn't find out till the following morning she was still at school.
I wonder if we did a controlled experiment with males and females of varying ages being shown pictures of other males and females of various ages, what the response would be overall when we remove the knowledge of age? I predict something similar to below:
A female of 24 years might have a genuine positive sexual response to a very fit looking young male with a great tanned physique that looks 20 but where his actual age is omitted. I would argue that is similar to the 'natural' response we all have whether we like to admit it or not, a purely physical reaction before our brain kicks in and says "just no!".
Would that same female respond in the same way if she was shown his age at the same time as viewing his picture? Lets say he was 17.
I suspect yes, as the
initial physical urge would still be there if only very briefly, but I suspect it would be suppressed as the mind then assesses the image with the additional element of age in the equation. Again I think this would be an almost automatic response, as I described my own reaction above.
I could be completely wrong of course but I suspect that is what would happen.
If I am right, though, it suggests that when removing the element of age, the accepted social moral view revolving around ages of consent is definitely not a one size fits all when compared to peoples
actual physical reactions and that all kinds of people from all walks of life can and will have a sexual response to underage, or younger people who appear older than they are. So would they all be deficient in some way, or on a broader view could it be that in terms of the physical, the law and general moral standpoint actually defy nature and that our natural state is to be sexually attracted to any partner who fits our 'taste' who is sexually mature and willing, irrelevant of age? With regard to relationships we generally prefer people of our own age, and I think much of that is social - same interests, educated conversation etc etc. However, do we actually, as individuals, need any of that for the purposes of sexual gratification? Men in particular, as mentioned earlier, tend to be drawn to young sexy women and I wonder why that is? Is it a sub conscious biological decision? I struggle to see that it is, because a woman with wide hips and carrying a bit more weight would probably be better a child birthing than a slim sexy blonde! So why are all of our 'mens' magazines like zoo, nuts, daily sport etc full of 18 year olds with their tops off? I strongly suspect that its only 18 year olds because of the law and that if they could get away with it, it would be 16 year olds. And that point opens up a whole can of worms regarding our sexual morality!
I do find it interesting why we have such a slanted view point on the whole subject of male and female sex/sexuality too. If it were a 15 year old male having sex with a 30 year old female we would probably find that far more acceptable even though it is equally illegal. Comments like "go on son!!" would no doubt be prevalent. So why do we ascribe such different moral views when it is a female? Just as we don't bat an eyelid at females wondering into male changing rooms, but would string the male up as a pervert if it were the other way around. Male cleaners in female toilets? Never! But the opposite is a regular occurrence. I'm really not sure how this imbalance evolved but I find it a particularly curious facet of our lives.
Relationships are a different thing entirely, but in purely physical terms sex between a male and female who are consenting and able to do so (IE physically mature enough) is a natural thing and has been happening since the dawn of our species. It is only our laws and the way that our society and it's viewpoint have evolved that makes it unacceptable between two people with such an age difference when one is so young. Interestingly, other elements such as monogamy are also a relatively recent addition to our moral fabric.
Again I think it is probably a cultural thing and the general way our society works. IE 15 year olds generally live at home with mum and (or) dad and have no real life experience - IE immature and in need of life experience.
I wonder how our views would change if the social norm became that people of 13 went into the work place, and by 15 some had moved out of the family home. But even if they haven't, the are more mature because they have had more responsibility - work, paying bills etc. It is a purely hypothetical situation and I am not saying for a moment that I think it would work in reality, but if we say hypothetically that it did work, I think it opens up a lot of questions for discussion.
I find our perception of maturity interesting and invariably it seems linked to responsibility. It also strikes me that in cultures where youngsters are brought up and given responsibility at younger ages by the time they are mid teens they can exhibit a pretty mature outlook. So is it purely a life experience issue? Would a 16 year old male still be classed as a 'man' if he had a job, his own place and was paying his rent every month? At what point does someone become mature? I find it curious that as a society we allow females of 16 to have sex and become a mother - arguably the greatest responsibility a human being can have - and yet they cant buy alcohol or drive a car, or even vote! A 17 year old male can join the armed forces and die for his country but he cannot vote for or against the government that may send him to war!
We do seem to have some odd juxtapositions in this country!
Anyway, as the previously posted world map shows, different societies have evolved different views with regard to consent and I have to wonder, does that make them wrong and us right? Or vice versa? Again I find the varying ages of consent on a global scale interesting, and I again wonder how much lifestyle and culture impact the way our society evolves in the sexual maturity aspect.
For instance, in this country sex with someone under 16 is illegal, but in Japan - a well developed society like our own - the map would suggest there are areas where sex is legal even with a 13 year old. Yes we all respond with "noooo thats just plain wrong!".
I wonder, though, looking at that map whether people in Japan have the same response as us about their own age of consent? Just because it is legal it does not make it right? Or I wonder if 13 year olds having sex is normal to them? I wonder what the age difference is between consent and the legal age of adulthood? (I admit I don't know a lot about Japan!)
Anyway, these were a few of my ponderings whilst reading through this thread earlier.
Cheers
Buff
