Back-to-work scheme ruled lawful by High Court

[Destination]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but this case was heard in the high courts and not strasbourg, couldn't this girl now take her case to the European court of human rights? Are there any appeals allowed for the high courts decision or was this final?

Authorities should not in any circumstances be able to order work done for less than minimum wage, or are the unemployed to be treated like real convicted criminals who are sentenced to community service? Obviuosly another crackpot judge's decision.

Just checked and the girls lawyer is lodging an appeal. if it fails she would then be able to have the case heard in Strasbourg. In the meantime thousands can now put a claim for unlawful stopage of benefit.

A fair days pay for a fair days work, the NMW is the law and no one should be above it, I hope this case goes to Strasbourg, for those who think unpaid work for the unemployed is acceptable should also work for benefit levels, you know practice what you preach and all that.

Maybe she should have just done the two week placement, and not wasted the countries money on a case against the taxpayer, who are funding her JSA.

I have family members worked for 10 years since qualifying, didnt miss work, paid their taxes in good jobs, saved towards a house. Recession arrives, and they both lose their jobs, firms gone, little to no work in the field. Since been applying for anything going, but as they have savings, and have actually worked in the past and paid their taxes, after 6 months they will be cut off completely by the govt.

It simply isn't fair that job dodging creeps, as I see many of them every day, who never work, or lie about the work they undertake, continue to get the free money for the duration of their job seeking lives..

 

[kitch9]

As an employer myself I would be impressed with a candidate who had used these schemes to better themselves and to boost their cv.

I would be much less impressed with a candidate who sat and whined like a little girl about it.

The employers who are assisting in these schemes need to be applauded not lamented due to the fact new employees tend to be a liability and costly until they are trained and competent in their role.

Life's hard guys, the jobs market is competitive, sitting on the settee crying that someone should be doing it for you all day instead of being proactive in the market probably ain't going to get you work if you are struggling to find it.

My advice? Deal with it.

 

[ZG002]

As an employer myself I would be impressed with a candidate who had used these schemes to better themselves and to boost their cv.

I would be much less impressed with a candidate who sat and whined like a little girl about it.

The employers who are assisting in these schemes need to be applauded not lamented due to the fact new employees tend to be a liability and costly until they are trained and competent in their role.

Life's hard guys, the jobs market is competitive, sitting on the settee all day instead of being proactive in the market probably ain't going to get you work if you are struggling to find it.

My advice? Deal with it.

I think you need a spell on the other side of it tbh.

 

[GAC]

yes working at poundland for 2 weeks stacking shelves is going to land you a job.

as for applauding a company that will cut/not hire people because they can get free staff in i guess that makes good economic sense for them saving money and making profit, but treating people like trash isnt the best way to help motivate them on to greater things.

 

[spankingtexan]

Maybe she should have just done the two week placement, and not wasted the countries money on a case against the taxpayer, who are funding her JSA.

I have family members worked for 10 years since qualifying, didnt miss work, paid their taxes in good jobs, saved towards a house. Recession arrives, and they both lose their jobs, firms gone, little to no work in the field. Since been applying for anything going, but as they have savings, and have actually worked in the past and paid their taxes, after 6 months they will be cut off completely by the govt.

It simply isn't fair that job dodging creeps, as I see many of them every day, who never work, or lie about the work they undertake, continue to get the free money for the duration of their job seeking lives..

You've missed the point.

 

[spankingtexan]

I think you need a spell on the other side of it tbh.

Guess he likes the free labour.

 

[=XDC=FluphyBunny]

As always the jsa schemes are affecting the wrong people.

There are any number of people claiming jsa that are not nor have they ever looked for work, its these people that should be made to work for 'nothing' (baring in mind you are looking at jsa/council tax/rent etc., they are clearing more money than many not to mention the work they are doing on the side tax free.

Honestly although this scheme is clearly flawed (its used by big well off companies to make even more money) at some point someone needs to have the balls and tackle the benefits problem.

 

[sketchytom]

i was on jsa after coming out of college and after being on jsa for 3 months they started pushing these slave labour programs on me that i refused to do, i was then told i would loose my jsa. but luckly i got a little part time job through a family member.

my mate was not so lucky he now is not eligable for jsa/housing benefit/council tax benifit because he turned down a 30 odd hour week of free work in pound land just to keep his 56 pounds a week of jsa (under 25 pay rate from jobcentre)

i think it is ridiculous. I think if it was say a day or two a week of work then fair enough as that works out around the amount you get from jsa a week.

what these people do not understand is that the jsa amount is a bearly livable amount, going to work (for free) means you are going to be tired your going to need money for food each day at work, for travel each day at work that the tiny amount would not cover.

you take into account that when i was signing on i had 56 quid a week. it broke down to a tenner each on gas and electric meters 6 pounds a week for water rates leaving the 30 pounds for shopping each week. i never had any money to clothe myself, i had no money to pay for busses, my mobile never had credit (which made it fun for trying to apply for jobs), i had no internet (which made it harder to search for job vacancies).

 

[minister]

It's not about being fussy, if I was on the dole I would jump at the chance of having this 'work experience' if I was guaranteed a job at the end of it but very rarely does it net you a job, and in many areas there are genuinely no jobs available, down here you gets HUNDREDS of people applying for one menial position, when poundland opened here we had around 600 people applying for about 4 positions.

When I was younger and ever out of work I could always get a job the next day, you just got up early and pound the pavement, going around to local shops, hotels, super stores etc, you'd always get a job that day, but now most companies tell you that you have to apply through the job centre, it's hard to brute force your way into a job these days, and the job centre are very rarely helpful and quite often demeaning even when your genuinely looking for work.

Also elmarko1234 makes good point, how on earth are you going to be convinced that work is a good thing when your life is actually worse off during this work experience, you should be rewarded for it by being paid the market rate for the job, show the real lazy people out there that life could be much improved in fulltime employment, that you get rewarded for your efforts, not punished.

i guess when you were younger you lived alone?

 

[Allnamestaken]

The worse thing is when you finally get a job and the DWP take about a month to send you a p45 if you miss your first months cut off to be paid they take so long sending you your p45 you might even not get your second months pay..... Happend to me.... Ive worked 2 months at my new job unpaid because the DWP are totally inept and have not got my P45 to me in the time it was vitally needed.

Well i suppose I can take it as a plus eh? When I do get paid it will be about 4 grand so boom.

Small things like this **** me off though.

 

[FoxEye]

We have a job surplus in many many areas, just because the are less jobs flipping burgers than people to do it doesn't stop us having to bring in immigrants to do jobs that UK staff cannot sadly

We have skilled jobs and a workforce which lacks those skills, true.
Sadly, at some point it became cheaper to hire from abroad a worker who already has** those skills, than to train someone already living in the UK.
Employers moan that they are "forced" to hire from abroad, when in fact it is simply a cost cutting exercise.

There have been many articles written recently (and not so recently), explaining from a business perspective why it is *BAD* for employers to train staff. One reason often given is that if you train a person, they might leave your company with their new found skills to take up a better paid position in a rival company.

We now have an ethos amongst businesses in many sectors where training people is seen as completely undesirable. I have even been told this at job interviews, when asking about promotion prospects.

One company flat out told me "We do not tend to promote internally. We do not provide training for staff looking to change positions. We always aim to hire someone who already has the skills we are looking for. If we hire you it will be for a specific position and you should expect to remain in that position until you leave the company." No bs, this is the honest truth.

You wonder why UK workers don't have the skills the market wants? The answer: employers have discovered that training people is less desirable than importing people.

**or in some cases, greatly exaggerates the skills/training they have received. Ie, the quality of work is well below what an employer might expect if training their own staff.

 

[kitch9]

I think you need a spell on the other side of it tbh.

Cry me a river......

Just before leaving school I used to work on Saturdays in a clothes shop in my town. I got £15.00 a day for 10 hours work and it used to cost me £2 quid to get the bus there.

I didn't do it for the money.

After leaving school, I could have signed on and got more money than I was getting working, but I didn't want to be that guy so I gritted my teeth and got a years worth of experience working a few days a week for £15.00 per day.

What I gained from that pittance of a wage which was less than the dole was an excellent reference on my CV from 2 very happy managers, who I knew had shafted me royally on wages but in the end it was worth it.

I landed a job at 18 in a local electronics factory of the back of those references which paid a hell of a lot more than the £40 a week my mates apprenticeships were paying, and I got promoted from there.

Nobody is going to do this stuff for you, a small amount of short term pain could bring you long time gain, but in this case you still get paid your benefits so you are not actually losing anything, but possibly gaining a USP for your CV, or maybe even a job if you can impress.

Short sighted whiners who wallow in their own self righteous pity expecting others to do what they should be doing instead of getting off their lazy backside and doing make me sick TBQFH.

We have skilled jobs and a workforce which lacks those skills, true.
Sadly, at some point it became cheaper to hire from abroad a worker who already has** those skills, than to train someone already living in the UK.
Employers moan that they are "forced" to hire from abroad, when in fact it is simply a cost cutting exercise.

There have been many articles written recently (and not so recently), explaining from a business perspective why it is *BAD* for employers to train staff. One reason often given is that if you train a person, they might leave your company with their new found skills to take up a better paid position in a rival company.

We now have an ethos amongst businesses in many sectors where training people is seen as completely undesirable. I have even been told this at job interviews, when asking about promotion prospects.

One company flat out told me "We do not tend to promote internally. We do not provide training for staff looking to change positions. We always aim to hire someone who already has the skills we are looking for. If we hire you it will be for a specific position and you should expect to remain in that position until you leave the company." No bs, this is the honest truth.

You wonder why UK workers don't have the skills the market wants? The answer: employers have discovered that training people is less desirable than importing people.

**or in some cases, greatly exaggerates the skills/training they have received. Ie, the quality of work is well below what an employer might expect if training their own staff.

What a load of old drivel..... I'm sorry but this is firing my bullcrap detector of the charts.

 

[FoxEye]

What a load of old drivel..... I'm sorry but this is firing my bullcrap detector of the charts.

You sound like a really nice chap who knows what they're talking about... oh, and welcome to my ignore list.

A quick Google would tell you how wrong you are, but I'm not going to waste my time on you. It seems one thing you haven't added to your vast life experience, is how not to be a complete ass.

 

[Tefal]

One company flat out told me "We do not tend to promote internally. We do not provide training for staff looking to change positions. We always aim to hire someone who already has the skills we are looking for. If we hire you it will be for a specific position and you should expect to remain in that position until you leave the company." No bs, this is the honest truth.

what company was that and what position was it?

it's funny you say there's no interest in changing as big companies know that the best way to make a workforce more willing to accept change, with in sop, regulations or anything else is to train them, even in something that's not specific to the area that's changing.

what was the position something along the lines of call center or first/second line support where the only way "up" is management and the people employed in the roles beneath aren't really suitable for management.

 

[spankingtexan]

The worse thing is when you finally get a job and the DWP take about a month to send you a p45 if you miss your first months cut off to be paid they take so long sending you your p45 you might even not get your second months pay..... Happend to me.... Ive worked 2 months at my new job unpaid because the DWP are totally inept and have not got my P45 to me in the time it was vitally needed.

Well i suppose I can take it as a plus eh? When I do get paid it will be about 4 grand so boom.

Small things like this **** me off though.

You must have a very understanding landlord, when I came off jsa I also had to wait several weeks for my first pay packet, nearly got slung out my flat for failing to pay the rent, I did explain to them I'd clear it up just as soon as I got paid to which they replied that isn't their problem, what a lovely understanding world we live in.

 

[Hxc]

I know it varies area to area but I have never had an issue finding work; I got the first two jobs I applied to in Norwich and I've been offered 7 in bristol and am working 3.... none of them 'skilled'.

You must have a very understanding landlord, when I came off jsa I also had to wait several weeks for my first pay packet, nearly got slung out my flat for failing to pay the rent, I did explain to them I'd clear it up just as soon as I got paid to which they replied that isn't their problem, what a lovely understanding world we live in.

And rightly so; that rent is their income; they need it too.

 

[kitch9]

yes working at poundland for 2 weeks stacking shelves is going to land you a job.

as for applauding a company that will cut/not hire people because they can get free staff in i guess that makes good economic sense for them saving money and making profit, but treating people like trash isnt the best way to help motivate them on to greater things.

No, but having a strong reference on your Cv of your work mentality might.

 

[kitch9]

You sound like a really nice chap who knows what they're talking about... oh, and welcome to my ignore list.

A quick Google would tell you how wrong you are, but I'm not going to waste my time on you. It seems one thing you haven't added to your vast life experience, is how not to be a complete ass.

Even if an employer had that intention, why would they tell you that? Go on tell us who it was then...

The vast majority of businesses out their who's been in business more than 10 minutes would know the benefits of a motivated workforce.

The vast majority of the countries jobs are with sme's by the way.

Not sure I'll sleep tonight knowing you are ignoring me.

 

[FoxEye]

what company was that and what position was it?

it's funny you say there's no interest in changing as big companies know that the best way to make a workforce more willing to accept change, with in sop, regulations or anything else is to train them, even in something that's not specific to the area that's changing.

what was the position something along the lines of call center or first/second line support where the only way "up" is management and the people employed in the roles beneath aren't really suitable for management.

It was an IT related job; not helpdesk tho. There's no way in hell I'm ever doing helpdesk; people get stuck there and never get out.

At the time, I was looking to build a career in IT, and hoping to start somewhere below my ideal position and move up. I won't go into the details.

Anyway, I kept getting rebuffed and many times was flat out told that internal promotion just does not happen.

And having read a fair bit about getting well paid IT jobs, I discovered a number of articles basically agreeing with the experience I've had. There are jobs, and there are people willing to do them, but companies do not want to train for positions such as DBA; network admin; server admin; developer.

They want to bring someone in who is the finished article. And if they have to import people, they are willing to do that. It's not like my experience is unique, you can find thousands of articles on the net including those written from a business perspective, advocating the idea that training in counter productive.

 

["andy"]

The worse thing is when you finally get a job and the DWP take about a month to send you a p45 if you miss your first months cut off to be paid they take so long sending you your p45 you might even not get your second months pay..... Happend to me.... Ive worked 2 months at my new job unpaid because the DWP are totally inept and have not got my P45 to me in the time it was vitally needed.

Well i suppose I can take it as a plus eh? When I do get paid it will be about 4 grand so boom.

Small things like this **** me off though.

Why does no p45 equal you not getting paid ?