Sunday Trading Laws
- Thread starter Randomface74
- Start date
Please don’t keep saying that chooses to do it because she doesn't
No one chooses to work 60+ hours for free.
I repeat - In the lead up to Xmas
1. 7 days working is enforced
2. Minimum 12 hour days are enforced
She is choosing to work lots of hours for free. If not, please tell me who comes and drags her from her house and makes her do it.
Who does she work for?
Enforced how, is there some law I am not aware of here?
By bullying and intimidation probably. For some people the threat of losing their job is enough to allow unscrupulous managers to enforce all kinds of illegal practices without censure.
The stick here is a promotion and unrealistic targets. Not job losses
Surely any sacking because of not working these stupid hours unpaid would not go down well at a tribunal.
Exactly this, they are using scare-tactics rather than any enforceable working hours. The EU directive is in place to specifically stop this. That said, if you are still working under a probationary period then I can see why it would be difficult to say no.
I would love to live in utoptian paradise where some of you seem to live, where a company actually sticks to the law and treats the workers with respect.
Many companies will simply sack you on the spot for not working when they say... take em tribunal? hahaha youre having a laugh. Companies like this will make up written warning and diciplinaries to make you look like a rubbish worker. The other staff will back up the company in fear of their own jobs.
In effect many workers live in fear of their job and will simply have to do what ever is asked of them... refuse and most likely you will be shown the door and someone more compliant taken on. ( usually either an immigrant or a mate of someone in middle management )
Its made plainly clear that no one is safe in their job from the onset and the climate of fear is terrible.
Workers rights and the law only seem to be enforcable in big companies that have HR departments and have a name to keep.
And before you ask im talking from experiance here.
I often was in bed on a day off at say 8am when the phone rang and my manager saying "be in for 9 or dont bother coming in on monday... XX is off sick i need you in NOW!"
This would be a regular occurance in my dept and i do remember one guy who refused, he was actually away somewhere, and he got fired the next week for gross misconduct! they just made something up and got rid.
Believe me there are tens of thousands of workers in this country who are treated like bonded slaves and the law simply does not or cannot help. Its for those workers that the sunday trading laws are kept to try and give them al least a bit of relief.
Many companies will simply sack you on the spot for not working when they say... take em tribunal? hahaha youre having a laugh. Companies like this will make up written warning and diciplinaries to make you look like a rubbish worker. The other staff will back up the company in fear of their own jobs.
In effect many workers live in fear of their job and will simply have to do what ever is asked of them... refuse and most likely you will be shown the door and someone more compliant taken on. ( usually either an immigrant or a mate of someone in middle management )
Its made plainly clear that no one is safe in their job from the onset and the climate of fear is terrible.
Workers rights and the law only seem to be enforcable in big companies that have HR departments and have a name to keep.
And before you ask im talking from experiance here.
I often was in bed on a day off at say 8am when the phone rang and my manager saying "be in for 9 or dont bother coming in on monday... XX is off sick i need you in NOW!"
This would be a regular occurance in my dept and i do remember one guy who refused, he was actually away somewhere, and he got fired the next week for gross misconduct! they just made something up and got rid.
Believe me there are tens of thousands of workers in this country who are treated like bonded slaves and the law simply does not or cannot help. Its for those workers that the sunday trading laws are kept to try and give them al least a bit of relief.
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I've got to say I disagree with what you are saying.
We have very good workers rights in this country and some are even backed by Unions. Companies can't get rid of people anywhere near as easily as you suggest, infact there was a report I saw recently where many business owners actually feel they are sometimes stuck because they can't replace somebody due to the rights.
If somebody is fired for not working hours outside of their contract, the company wouldn't have a leg to stand on at an employee tribunal and that is before you bring in a professional solicitor.
A company I worked for once didn't give me some money I was due and just the threat of tribunals was enough to get them to cough up.
SDK's slave of another half must be working for some major company if they insist on no days off upto xmas and 14 hours a day are expected inc on a sunday. They will not be making up some rubbish for gross misconduct.
Weak employees allow crap working rules by **** management.
Thats ok for large companies but trust me many small companies or Small-medium size companies act like i outlined, i should know ive worked for a few. Solicitors mean nothing if you cannot afford them, and most places like this take you on with a zero hour contract and make up your shifts week by week often overriding the rota at the last minute.
As i mentioned i saw the sort of tactics used at a tribunal, they fabricate and back date written and verbal warnings if someone does go that far. There are companies run by total (swearword)s who will lie cheat and bully thier way along.
Unions only help if there is one... most low paid factory workers have no option of a union to join and even if they did the odds are stacked against them.
In the end i went self employed and havent looked back since.
Remember i am talking about the bottom rung of workers, the minimum wage zero hour contract ones, thats even if you GET a contract! a lot of places just take you on and get rid before your 2 years are up and you get some rights.
The report you saw would be from feedback from company owners who actually play fair and by the rules. In which case yes we do have good laws... its the ones who lie and cheat im talking about of which im guessing there are a sizable number.
The company i was using in my example was/is a large manchester based computer retailer who focus now on online sales. I wont name them for obvious reasons but they give the illusion of being a reputable and above board company, trust me behind the scenes its neither.
When i worked for them i kept my head down and did as much as i could for as much money as i could being single and living on my own. I saw the strife that my co workers with families went though week by week just trying to organise childcare when the boss decided to alter the rotas the night before.
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There are plenty of 'No Win, No Fee' Solicitors out there who specialise in Employment Law. I know people like to mock such practises that try and get money from accidents and ambulance chasing, but ultimately something like unfair dismissal is a genuine case.
Any company that starts making up warnings and such is committing fraud and if the employee suspects that they are doing that, its going to come to bare in court.
You sound like you are specifically referring to businesses where people don't have a proper contract or contracted hours. As such, those workers don't really have much in the way of rights. It's not good at all, but then obviously some bottom of the rung jobs exist like that.
In terms of a proper contracted job though for a fully time employee, its very difficult for them to be gotten rid of, or defeated in a tribunal. In my career I've seen two people take their employers to tribunal on unfair dismissal cases, which were weak at best and they both won them.
Any company that starts making up warnings and such is committing fraud and if the employee suspects that they are doing that, its going to come to bare in court.
You sound like you are specifically referring to businesses where people don't have a proper contract or contracted hours. As such, those workers don't really have much in the way of rights. It's not good at all, but then obviously some bottom of the rung jobs exist like that.
In terms of a proper contracted job though for a fully time employee, its very difficult for them to be gotten rid of, or defeated in a tribunal. In my career I've seen two people take their employers to tribunal on unfair dismissal cases, which were weak at best and they both won them.
Probably not, however a tribunal costs money, it also requires representation and the knowledge of the process in the first place, there is also the 'fear factor' and if promotion and the adherence to unrealistic targets is the stick then that is even more insidious as it doesn't even give the person the remit to resign and claim unfair or constructive dismissal, it simply means they are trapped between a rock and a hard place where refusal to meet the demands means a detrimental consequence on their career and a potential and implied threat that they will not progress and the implication that not meeting targets will ultimately affect their employment status.
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Either:
a) She is forced. This is unlawful. I never said she wasn't 'forced', I said if she is, then it is illegal. Which it is.
b) She is not forced and does it in hope of promotion.
If it's a), do something about it. If it's b) then complaining about it seems a bit weird as it's basically her choice to go above and beyond her contract of employment and give up her legal rights in favour of potential promotion. Lots of people do this, there is nothing wrong with doing it, but if you do you can hardly complain about being 'forced' to do things, can you?
Soldato
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I have no issues with them.
In fact I love things being closed as it means you can have some peace and quiet.
Having lived in the Med, as well as sleepy little towns there's nothing nicer than having a Sunday of pure relaxation and not having to worry about anything - means people can have a day off too.
It really isn't a big deal for me - I'm organised enough to have all I need in the house over a weekend, and there's nothing which can't wait until Monday anyway.
I won't be signing that petition. Quite happy how things are, and I'd be happy for them to go back to much more classical trading laws. However, I'm an old fashioned romantic, who enjoys having a "day of rest".
I'd agree with all that , in my time living in WA Perth down under, supermarkets closed at 5 pm and very limited opening hours on Sunday.
On good Friday everything closed even the pubs
The idea been to give everyone time to spend with their families. If you want to go food shopping etc be organized and buy it the previous day.
I'm sure there is some economic reason to disprove the following theory but surely people only have so much money to spend and will spend whatever the opening hours?
Sure when the CC companies were going WOO YEAH lets lend loads of money to people , people were spending more but not now surely?
A few points. Think of it in a gradual exercise.
If the economy doesn't suffer with 1 day of shop closure, then why should it suffer under 2 days of closure? Why under 3? Why under 4? Surely 1 day is enough?
Obviously gradually the problem gets worse and worse, but that 1 day of closure has an impact. It actually increases unemployment as there are less hours to go round.
Secondly, by stopping the likes of Tesco and clothing giants from remaining open you limit competition. You would have to spend more at a smaller store to get that thing you needed immediately or are only available to buy on a Sunday. Forcing people to spend more makes little sense.
My final point, if working hours are the reason for Sunday closures, why does it apply to retail only? Surely you should force small retailers (which actually employs an army of people and could "abuse" workers in the same way). Also what about other sectors? Remember that workers rights are supposedly so poor we need Sunday Trading laws in the first place.
How about a 35 hour working week directive with no ifs or buts, like Sunday Trading laws? Anyone think that's a smart idea?
Sunday trading laws also won't stop crazy people working 100hr+ weeks voluntarily on a 39hr a week contract. No company would force you to work 12hrs a day for 7 days a week formally. If they ask you informally without recompense in some way (reduced hours elsewhere, or overtime, higher promotion prospects) then you are crazy, but it is your choice. The law shouldn't have to protect you from yourself when deciding how much to work.
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Soldato
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You clearly haven't worked in the Public Sector, it's the other way around there. If the Union doesn't back it, the management can forget it and all a worker has to do is mention 'Union Rep' and any disciplinary seems to go away.
And yet Sunday Trading laws only apply to big retailers.
The law of needing money to survive. The happy fantasy of a free choice of jobs and a bundle of cash in the bank to see you through the brief period between leaving a bad job and getting a good one is just that - fantasy. It might apply in some socioeconomic classes, but it sure as hell doesn't apply to the majority of workers. Even laws don't actually matter when they're not enforced. For example, I worked illegal hours for years. My employer knew they were illegal hours. They also knew I wasn't going to risk my job on the chance of possibly getting some money from a tribunal (which would also ensure bad references for any job I applied for in the future, which would make it likely that I wouldn't get another job).
The working poor can't afford to take risks because they don't have a buffer of money.
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