Woman saves fox from hounds

Castiel said:
Your reply just illustrates the pointlessness of continuing.....the whole devolving of power to local communities is exactly my point...

The are a myriad of grants and exceptions made to a whole range of laws for a whole range of reasons including ones based on regional variances....county and parish councils have powers over all kinds of bylaws and policy decisions..... there is no reason why hunting cannot be one of them. That includes peckham.
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What you really what is to be given an exception because people in the country are special and the rules don't apply to them because other people apparently don't understand. There are actually very few regional laws and those that exsists are almost exclusivng tied to a localised anomaly which other people in the country couldn't care less about.

Many people would consider allowing hunting with dogs in specific areas as significant and controvertial as decriminalising class a drugs, lowing marriage age to 14, selling of bush meat, allowing slapping of children etc.
 
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Xordium said:
:confused:
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What about.....seems pretty straight forward really. He just made a sweeping statement about me personally instead of the argument I put forward, he didnt even attempt to give an opinion on the actual points under debate. What you did was to try to alter the context and therefore the intent and position being proposed in my posts in order to make your own position more relevant. I was questioning the content of your posts to that effect.

Anyway it taken me almost 15 minutes just to post this reply as virginmedia are being dickheads..so I'm out for now.
 
Virginmedia being idiots = stressful situation for Castiel
A fox with death haunting its every thought and the impending doom of rapid and savage violence ever present on its fragile mind all played out to a cacophony of bugles by some toffs = just good sport

Castiel said:
What about.....seems pretty straight forward really. He just made a sweeping statement about me personally instead of the argument I put forward, he didnt even attempt to give an opinion on the actual points under debate. What you did was to try to alter the context and therefore the intent and position being proposed in my posts in order to make your own position more relevant. I was questioning the content of your posts to that effect.
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He gave an opinion it may not have been put as eloquently as yours but it was an opinion nevertheless.
 
Mike306 said:
The ignorance is this thread is astounding. But this is GD, I shouldn't be surprised.
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By not highlighting which side you favour, your post is a bit meaningless? :confused:
Not that generalising about a group's ignorance isn't already meaningless :)
Johno please? said:
Why would you want to get on a horse and hunt down a fox? Because you're an upper-middle class, entitled, posh **** thats why.
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Pretty much every horse owner I know has a normal job and are about as posh as a bag of chips. Making this into some kind of class war thing is dubious.
Not that there aren't a few posh nobs with expensive hunters, but posh people normally have better things to do than muck out a stable at 6am.

Maybe we should abandon every traditional countryside pursuit and become one amorphous blob of cultural greyness. A bit like the people who live in cities and provide much of the criticism of what other people choose to do.
 
Xordium said:
Virginmedia being idiots = stressful situation for Castiel
A fox with death haunting its every thought and the impending doom of rapid and savage violence ever present on its fragile mind all played out to a cacophony of bugles by some toffs = just good sport
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Animals are not aware of their own impending death or any other animals death, this isn't Disney.

Have a look at that vets article that Castiel posted.
 
muon said:
Powers and prohibitive laws are very different. People from Peckham (or wherever) don't want to devolve power, they want to uphold a law across the country which is to be applied uniformally based on animal welfare.

This is completely different to the point you are trying to make. What law which is related to welfare and rights, differs within England? Show me one.
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There is significant controversy over whether hound hunting is more or less humane than other forms of wildlife management, so the argument about upholding animal welfare is subjective at best.

And my point is that these decisions can be devolved to local authorities, not that they are...your counter was to include environmental and economic issues into the argument, which do have a certain amount of devolved provision, either through Bylaws or through grants and exceptions.

I used the differences in the law between the various constituent parts of the UK to illustrate that we already have a devolved position on fox-hunting and that further devolution is not unworkable. In fact Localism was a manifesto tenet of the Conservatives in their election pledges. (So was a free vote on repeal of the foxhunting laws mind).

As far as an example of a bylaw where animal welfare is concerned there are some councils that prohibit the keeping of livestock (particularly chickens and pigs) in residential areas due to concerns on animal welfare and the impact on the environment and others where it is permitted, the laws regarding Falconry also are affected by bylaws as well....but anyway that is immaterial to the point I was making and that is about devolution of decision making to local communities, as I said many times before the Hunting Ban is immaterial to that except that it would allow local communities to decide for themselves how their communities deal with Animal Welfare and the impact each provision has on their local community.

The animal welfare argument of fox hunting is flawed insofar as there is simply no scientific consensus on the relative welfare of hunting with hounds as opposed to other forms of management....the most humane would be caging and lethal injection, but that has been found to be impractical on scale and prohibitively expensive......other forms including lamping and snaring are all subject to controversy regarding animal welfare. The problem is that many people feel that the use of the hounds means increased suffering for the fox and there is no scientific support for this, with significant evidence to show the opposite.

Basically I think the animal welfare argument is deeply flawed and that local people should have more say in what affects their communities, particularly on issues that disproportionately affect them. Whether there is a hunting ban or not is largely unimportant to me.

Agree or not, but I no more support animal cruelty than any of those who vehemently are opposed to hunting. I just don't agree with their reasoning on what constitutes animal cruelty in the context of Wildlife Management and I have given evidence to show why.
 
bitslice said:
Animals are not aware of their own impending death or any other animals death, this isn't Disney.
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*facepalm

Western scrub jays hold what we would call funerals when they encounter a dead member of their species. Teresa Iglesias and colleagues from the University of California at Davis noted that jays, on seeing a dead bird, gather around it; in the journal Animal Behavior, they write that this behavior may have evolved from needing to warn other birds of dangers.

The scientists conducted experiments in which they placed a number of objects into residential yards and observed how the jays reacted. The objects included different colored pieces of wood, dead jays, mounted stuffed jays and great horned owls.

The jays were indifferent to the wood. They gathered together and issued alarm calls on seeing the mounted horned owls, apparently because they thought they were predators. They sometimes mobbed the stuffed jay, a behavior displayed when seeing a competitor or a sick bird.

But their behavior towards the dead birds was the most significant. Not only did the jays issue alarm calls to warn others far away, but they stopped foraging for food for days. As the BBC explains, after finding the dead bird,

The jays then gathered around the dead body, forming large cacophonous aggregations. The calls they made, known as “zeeps”, “scolds” and “zeep-scolds”, encouraged new jays to attend to the dead.

The scientists wrote that just the sight of a dead bird was enough to make the jays seek to share this information to warn other birds of possible dangers, even “without witnessing the struggle and manner of death.”

Jays are not the only animals who scientists have observed taking notice of their dead.

When a member of their herd dies, elephants often guard the bodies. They become agitated and appear to investigate the dead animal, even touching the bones– the skull and tusks — with their trunks and feet in a ceremonial way (as caught on this video).

A few years ago, scientists from the UK and Kenya observed elephants engaged in such behaviors. They were unable to confirm that the elephants visit the bones of their dead relatives in particular. But, as scientists wrote in the journal Biology Letters, “their interest in the ivory and skulls of their own species means that they would be highly likely to visit the bones of relatives who die within their home range.”

As David Field, head of animal care for London and Whipsnade Zoos in the UK, says in New Scientist:

Elephants are highly intelligent and highly tactile animals. The fact they are able to distinguish between their own skulls and those of other species is not surprising.

Elephants themselves are a matriarchal society filled with aunties and family members who have close bonds within a group.

Therefore, a death in the family “could have an impact on social bonding and structure within the group,” just as it does in human families.

Like elephants, chimpanzees have large brains, live a long time and also live in complex social groups; they have also been observed mourning their dead for prolonged periods of time.

Chimpanzee mothers have been seen holding dead offspring for weeks. In far southeast of Guinea, scientists observed two mothers carrying their dead offspring for many days — 19 in one case and 68 in another — before abandoning them. Dry-season conditions had resulted in the corpses being, in essence, mummified. As New Scientist notes, “in other accounts of corpse-carrying primates, the body has been snatched out of the mother’s hands by rowdy males, or in wet conditions it has disintegrated within days.”

Even more, the mothers treated the corpses with great care as if they were still alive, grooming them, swatting flies away and producing high-pitched sounds when they accidentally dropped the bodies on the ground.

In another case, after the death of Pansy, an elderly chimp in captivity, her daughter stayed beside her through the night and other chimps cleaned the corpse and the place where she had died.

Zoologists have recorded three instances of giraffes, the world’s tallest animals, mourning their dead.

In 2010 in the Soysambu Conservancy in Kenya, a female giraffe was seen spending four days beside the body of her one-month-old calf. Seventeen other female giraffes also surrounded the body over the four days.

In 2011, a female giraffe in Zambia was seen spending two hours beside a calf who was apparently a stillborn. She splayed her legs to bend down — something giraffes rarely do, except to eat or drink — and licked the calf for several hours. This behavior was repeated for the entire two hours and was all the more notable as giraffes rarely spend time alone.

Also in 2011, a herd of giraffes in Namibia was seen investigating the corpse of a young female giraffe who had died three weeks before. Some of the male giraffes splayed their legs and sniffed the ground.

Scientists are wary of saying that some mammals have a concept of death, while noting that more species than had been thought react when one of their own dies.
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Xordium said:
Virginmedia being idiots = stressful situation for Castiel
A fox with death haunting its every thought and the impending doom of rapid and savage violence ever present on its fragile mind all played out to a cacophony of bugles by some toffs = just good sport
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Give over. Foxes are the least of any moral dilemma I have dealt with over the years.

Way to ignore anything I wrote about how I feel about hunting with hounds or what my responsibility was in those hunts I participated in and again you illustrate the real reason why some people are opposed to hound hunting.....class prejudice!

Xordium said:
He gave an opinion it may not have been put as eloquently as yours but it was an opinion nevertheless.
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No he didn't, he gave no opinion on the points under discussion whatsoever, just a statement about my personal contributions to the forum in general.
 
estebanrey said:
*facepalm
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Whatever :rolleyes:

Equally I've seen sheep trample over a dead sheep as if the carcass was a giant marshmallow. A cat dying and being ignored by other cats right next to her.
I'm pretty sure I could put a bullet in a cow to kill it and then kill the rest of the herd without any of them changing their behaviour.

Your cut-n-paste, and the other guys video do not prove that death is understood or expected, just that it triggers another set of behaviour.

Back on topic, a fox isn't going to be thinking about death, only about evading other predators.
 
Castiel said:
Give over. Foxes are the least of any moral dilemma I have dealt with over the years.

Way to ignore anything I wrote about how I feel about hunting with hounds or what my responsibility was in those hunts I participated in and again you illustrate the real reason why some people are opposed to hound hunting.....class prejudice!



No he didn't, he gave no opinion on the points under discussion whatsoever, just a statement about my personal contributions to the forum in general.
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Its totally pointless to argue with you, for starters you live on the forums, therefore the debate will be never ending.

Your posts contradict one another; next you will be telling everyone that you were once a matador.
 
bitslice said:
Whatever :rolleyes:

Equally I've seen sheep trample over a dead sheep as if the carcass was a giant marshmallow. A cat dying and being ignored by other cats right next to her.
I'm pretty sure I could put a bullet in a cow to kill it and then kill the rest of the herd without any of them changing their behaviour.

Your cut-n-paste, and the other guys video do not prove that death is understood or expected, just that it triggers another set of behaviour.

Back on topic, a fox isn't going to be thinking about death, only about evading other predators.
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That's 'bull ****'.

Take a calf away from a cow and watch the mother sit there and moo for 3 days straight not moving from the gate.

More sweeping statements please.
 
bitslice said:
Your cut-n-paste, and the other guys video do not prove that death is understood or expected, just that it triggers another set of behaviour.
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Could be said the same about humans though.

Whether they conceptualize death is irrelevant anyway, people with severe mental disabilities don't understand death but we don't go around hunting them because of it.
 
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