Another school shooting in the US

[estebanrey]

I'm laughing my behind off thinking about a high school janitor going all Clint Eastwood, ducking behind desks as they have a Hollywood style shoot out.

It's rubbish, firstly most people would run, even if armed themselves. Secondly, the shooter almost always brings a powerful semi-automatic firearm, that reduces the chances of a janitor with a pistol winning somewhat.

And like I said above, you don't solve a problem by increasing its root cause.

 

[starfighter]

More guns is defiantly not the answer, the problem is the US now has a massive problem with loads of guns everywhere which makes banning them even harder as the criminals will still be able to get hold of them. It's a bad situation if ever there was one.

Gun control does work. I can't believe there are that many more nutters in the USA than Europe but yet look at the stats, we have so much less gun crime and it is blatantly down to guns being harder to get.

 

[ubersonic]

and again the eternal question that should have been asked, why the **** does a school teacher need two handguns and an assault rifle for "personal defence"...

Because her son is a freaking psycho would be my first bet

It's rubbish, firstly most people would run, even if armed themselves. Secondly, the shooter almost always brings a powerful semi-automatic firearm, that reduces the chances of a janitor with a pistol winning somewhat.

This, the scenario reminds me of the North Hollywood shootout in 1997 (if you have seen the film Heat imagine two robbers doing that for real, the movie inspired them). The police knew their pistols and shotguns couldn't penetrate the robbers body armour and that their body armour couldn't withstand the robbers assault rifle fire so they basicaly hid behind their cars and tried to use surpressing fire to slow them until SWAT arrived (apart from some officers who ran to a gun store and requisitioned a bunch of AR-15's lol).

 

[bitslice]

So you're expecting a teacher to have the same mentality and reactions as a fire armed policeman?

Nope, although if someone owns a gun I expect them to attend training courses on how to use it (as per cars, explosives, smallpox samples)

Purely as a deterrent really, at the moment schools are a soft touch, maximum damage to a community

If there is a genuine need for an armed member of staff then you employ a security guard...

Never going to happen for every school though, this is the problem.
No point in shooting down one post if your own suggestion won't be implemented either.

 

[dowie]

Never going to happen for every school though, this is the problem.
No point in shooting down one post if your own suggestion won't be implemented either.

I said if it is needed - it isn't needed at every school...

In fact the only schools that might need one are ones with gang problems in urban areas (AFAIK some of them already have them along with metal detectors at entrances etc..)

Your idea of some Charlie Sheen type school cook being the hero of the day because he carries a concealed weapon in the kitchen in what is a very rare event is ridiculous.

 

[neocon]

So what computer game or movie do think will be taking the blame for this?

American Horror Story

Call of Duty

...

 

[TwsT]

friend of mine posted this which I think is interesting and to some degree I agree

America,

What's it going to take?

You have consistently and stubbornly ignored tragedy after tragedy in defence of an outdated law created in the 1790s.

Now your children are dead.

In September of 2001 a horrific terrorist attack killed nearly 3000 people. Your reaction was to change human rights laws, invest massively in your defence industry, even enter a war for which young men and women are still giving up their lives today, some 11 years later, in an effort to ensure this never happened again, however on average 30,000 people are killed every single year in your country as a result of firearms violence, ten times that of 9/11, and yet not only do you do nothing, you staunchly defend your 'right' to bear arms. Is this different from giving terrorists a fleet of 747s?

You've ignored everything from the murder of children to the assassination of presidents in perpetuation of your precious gun culture.

What's it going to take?

 

[bitslice]

I said if it is needed - it isn't needed at every school...

In fact the only schools that might need one are ones with gang problems in urban areas (AFAIK some of them already have them along with metal detectors at entrances etc..)

So what about this school? Didn't look to be a gangland area.

Your idea of some Charlie Sheen type school cook being the hero of the day because he carries a concealed weapon in the kitchen in what is a very rare event is ridiculous.

That was your daft idea actually.

Mine was guns as a deterrent, if nobody knows if a particular school has one or two armed staff, then all schools inherent the same deterrent by default.

 

[Third Opinion]

It just seems to me that the 'right' to own a keep firearms at home seems to me far more important to the gun fans in the USA than these massacres.

I really feel sorry for the families and the victims. At least I can send my children to school and go out knowing the chance of this happening here is very slight.

As for the argument that the Americans need guns in case they need to throw over their Government, maybe they should look at the end of the USSR.

Their arguments are flawed and out of touch, but there again they probably have no idea as most think the planet Earth consists of the USA. How many could still point to Germany, Russia, UK or China on a map?

 

[doofer]

Something is deeply broken in a 'Civilised' society that sells Bullet-Proof gear for School-Kids..

http://www.bulletblocker.com/bulletproof-school-safety-protection.html

Tragically it won't be the last time this happens, even if they do impose strict Firearms legislation.

The way the Media sensationalises these incidents also needs some strict control IMHO.

 

[Yas786]

So what computer game or movie do think will be taking the blame for this?

American Horror Story

Call of Duty

...

None of the above, think people are blaming Mass Effect for this lol. Seeing as the nutter was a huge mass effect fan or something.

 

[Skillmister]

None of the above, think people are blaming Mass Effect for this lol. Seeing as the nutter was a huge mass effect fan or something.

No he wasn't.

The person the media wrongly accused of being the shooter at first (who has had his facebook profile picture shared 10k+ times with various messages of hate added) is a fan of mass effect.

 

[Destination]

Had there been a single teacher/cook/janitor/cleaner/gardener on site with a gun, most of those children would have lived.

This isn't England with the Police a 5 minute call away.

2 points, the second one first, in most areas in the UK an armed response team would not be on scene in 5 minutes, a police officer might arrive, but he won't be armed in a fashion to take down a colt carbine weilding bulletproof vest wearing insane person.

If janitors and teachers were armed, if they were, I can bet there would be multiple small individual episodes of school shooting over the past 50 years in the UK, far outweighing the deatsh in these occasional massacres.

 

[dowie]

So what about this school? Didn't look to be a gangland area.

Yup... so no real need for guns there tbh... these weren't illegal weapons owned by some gangbanger these were guns bought legally for for some screwed in the head middle class 20 yr old - banning handguns would have helped here...

Mine was guns as a deterrent, if nobody knows if a particular school has one or two armed staff, then all schools inherent the same deterrent by default.

Yes and its a silly point - there have been plenty of shootings in areas of the US with concealed carry laws... the Charlie Sheen cook-idea doesn't act as much of a deterrent. Look at the previous mass shooting at a cinema in Colorado* - it didn't seem to bother the shooter much that there might be people carrying there. (*Colorado is an unrestricted open carry state, happy to issue concealed carry permits and has stand your ground legislation.)

 

[topshot]

More guns is defiantly not the answer, the problem is the US now has a massive problem with loads of guns everywhere which makes banning them even harder as the criminals will still be able to get hold of them. It's a bad situation if ever there was one.

Gun control does work. I can't believe there are that many more nutters in the USA than Europe but yet look at the stats, we have so much less gun crime and it is blatantly down to guns being harder to get.

Banning does not and will not work.
The guns used did not even belong to the killer. He stole them from his mother.
There are less killings in the EU due to better screening of mental/medical records and better treatment.
Less social issues and drugs as well.

Do you think if he had no way to obtain guns this wouldnt have happened? or would it just have involved a knife or bomb?

 

[estebanrey]

So what computer game or movie do think will be taking the blame for this?

Boardwalk Empire. The final episode featured this a week or two ago....

 

[Sankari]

Banning does not and will not work.

He actually said:

Gun control does work.

Learn to read.

 

[Mickie]

They should really start watching weirdos more in america as they're the ones that seem to go around killing on mass.

 

[joeyjojo]

Your idea of some Charlie Sheen type school cook being the hero of the day because he carries a concealed weapon in the kitchen in what is a very rare event is ridiculous.

Actually the research posted earlier concludes:

Second, within the civilian category 11 of the 17 shootings were stopped by unarmed civilians. What’s amazing about that is that whether armed or not, when a civilian plays hero it seems to save a lot of lives. The courthouse shooting in Tyler, Texas was the only incident where the heroic civilian was killed. In that incident the hero was armed with a handgun and the villain was armed with an assault rifle and body armor. If you compare the average of people killed in shootings stopped by armed civilians and unarmed civilians you get 1.8 and 2.6 but that’s not nearly as significant as the difference between a proactive civilian, and a cowering civilian who waits for police.

So, given that far less people die in rampage shootings stopped by a proactive civilian, only civilians have any opportunity to stop rampage shootings in roughly half of incidents, and armed civilians do better on average than unarmed civilians, wouldn’t you want those heroic individuals who risk their lives to save others to have every tool available at their disposal?

Which is a valid conclusion I think, and a pragmatist would say "let everyone have guns as there are too many out there now to start banning them, and heros actually save more lives than our law-enforcement agencies", the last part being quite shameful IMO.

That's a fine solution, and being more careful about selling them to crazies is a good idea. But the only sensible long term aim is to get the guns out of the hands of any civilians, and correspondingly improving the police response.

Banning does not and will not work.
The guns used did not even belong to the killer. He stole them from his mother.
There are less killings in the EU due to better screening of mental/medical records and better treatment.
Less social issues and drugs as well.

But if his mother didn't have a gun he wouldn't have stolen it There are less killing in the EU because normal people don't run around with guns! In particular the military kind that cause mayhem in the USA.

Getting the guns out of the equation, goodie or baddie, is the way it has to go if the USA wants to get in line with the rest of the developed world.

 

[topshot]

Actually the research posted earlier concludes:



Which is a valid conclusion I think, and a pragmatist would say "let everyone have guns as there are too many out there now to start banning them, and heros actually save more lives than our law-enforcement agencies", the last part being quite shameful IMO.

That's a fine solution, and being more careful about selling them to crazies is a good idea. But the only sensible long term aim is to get the guns out of the hands of any civilians, and correspondingly improving the police response.



But if his mother didn't have a gun he wouldn't have stolen it There are less killing in the EU because normal people don't run around with guns! In particular the military kind that cause mayhem in the USA.

Getting the guns out of the equation, goodie or baddie, is the way it has to go if the USA wants to get in line with the rest of the developed world.

So the only way to get a gun is to steal it from a legally owned source? How do you explain the rise in gun crime using handguns since the complete ban in the UK then?
What about other weapons?