Another school shooting in the US
- Thread starter .Griff.
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Soldato
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You should stop watching so many naff action films
Oh the irony.
Besides, the figures don't seem to suggest gun ownership is that effective as a burglary detterent....
Number of burglaries per 100,000 people (2010)....
Texas: 911.8 (source)
England & Wales: 936.5 (source)
Their burglary rate is just 2.6% lower than [relatively] gun-free England & Wales.
How many died in the machete attack?
Soldato
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"Insane rampages are, sadly, not confined to the United States. One happened this very day in China, where a cruel madman attacked a group of children at school.
Twenty-two children injured. Versus, at current count, 18 20 little children and nine eight other people shot dead. That's the difference between a knife and a gun."
http://www.theatlantic.com/national...ceptionalism-the-shootings-will-go-on/266293/
What does that have to do with anything? They have higher crime and drug issues, its a messed up country regardless of the front they put on.
America needs to sort its social problems as until they do events like this will continue to happen regardless of the weapon used.
Soldato
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I was answering the inference that gun ownership has a large deterrence effect on burglary put forward by bitslice. The causes of burglary are irrelevant to the question as to whether a gun scares people from doing it or not.
You could also look at gun ownership in Switzerland, Sweden, Finland etc these countries don't have the issues that the US does and incidents like this school shooting are very rare even though gun ownership is very common.
If you removed all guns from homes in that state do you think the crime rate would stay the same or increase?
My guess would be an increase
You are aware that people do still break into houses in Texas? I can't believe you're actually coming out with this sort of nonsense... easy availability of guns simply contributes to making incidents such as the school massacre more likely to happen. Gun's are easily available anywhere in the US... even in areas with gun control legislation (which is utterly pointless at a local level as its not like they have borders and often the penalties are just a large fine). In spite of the fact that guns are already prevalent and the USA has a very high proportion of gun related deaths you're still naive enough to believe that gun ownership acts as a deterrent.
I'm sure we've got introvert mental cases getting worked up in this country... they don't have easy access to guns, it is much harder for an incident like this to occur over here...
No I just joked about a point that is fundamentally flawed and is essentially the same point made by the US gun lobby every time one of these incidents happens...
The shooter in this case had a semi-automatic M4 variant... I can't see any legitimate reason for someone to own one - its not much good for hunting and as far as most American's homes are concerned it would pose a risk to their neighbours if used for home defence. The US does need to work on changing the gun culture slight - bring in legislation re: secure storage of weapons, registration of weapons... phase out the ownership of assault rifles, semi automatic rifles and handguns...
Reminds me of the "NRA Challenge"!
Would those (US Citizens) who argue in favour of stricter gun control be willing to put a notice on their front door stating "Unarmed Household. No Guns on this property"
I imagine that restricting "Legal" gun ownership in the US would be even less effective at cutting gun crime generally than it has been in the UK.
(I accept that it might cut "Spree Killings" but overall they only represent a small, tiny even, percentage of gun crime generally. It is just that they attract more media attention)
Criminals will still find guns readily available. Possibly (as in the UK) even more available than they were before any ban!
Soldato
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Don't think it would have much effect. To turn your question around, do you think if homeowners are armed it is more or less likely that those determined to steal will bring a bigger, more powerful gun? How many burglaries in the UK involve a firearm in the UK versus how many in the US?
You are making a circular problem, you don't fight fire with fire. You try and minimise the risk of a fire from occurring in the first place.
http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp
Half way down shows some murder rates before and after right to carry were introduced in various states, not exactly the same I agree but the general trend is down.
Scandinavian nations? - take a look at Norway - 67 deaths and 110 injured by Breivik
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Norway_attacks
As far as mental loner person going on a rampage is concerned - legally owned and easily available weapons are an issue.
No they don't have the same gang/drug culture, inner city deprivation etc.. as the US has so gun deaths overall are lower... but as far as incidents such as the one on this thread are concerned - they're much more viable in a country where you can legally obtain that sort of weapon in the first place. A 20 year old middle class white boy, with mental issues, who lives with him mum is unlikely to be able to acquire a semi automatic assault rifle or a glock or a sig in the UK... in the USA, apparently, him mum can simply go out and buy them for him.
Breivics actions were quite different from those of the typical "Spree Killer" and do not really make for a good comparison.
(Breivic was not carrying out a "Postal" act of revenge on the world. He was actually attempting a (Really rather logical, well planned and executed) Political assassination)
...you've just described most of GD there
I don't think Switzerland can be used as a valid comparison. The reason they all have guns there is because they have undergone military service and have had intense firearms training. Presumably, somewhere during that training anyone who is considered to be a risk will be identified and either have their firearm removed or given additional training/support. Swiss people see guns as a means to protect their country, not as a means to defend themselves against each other.
In America there are millions of gun owners who have had little to no formal training.
Soldato
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Irrelevant. The cause was not the point but the viability of success in a country with liberal gun laws.
Whether your spree is driven by politically ideology and was planned or a heat of the moment random attack, the availability of powerful firearms is going to make your mission a lot more deadly.
Never gets old does it?
Both of these are comments on culture, America is not the UK,
if I had a gun and someone ****** me off then I'd still key their car instead.
Even amongst comparable gun owning countries, more Americans choose to use a gun to kill, maybe they should ban Cowboy films...
(USA 88/100 ownership, 60% homicides with gun - Finland 45/100 ownership, 19% homicides with gun)
Gun Ownership
Gun Deaths
Not quite the correlation you imply. Still bad though.
They make the same points too, but with added hysteria.
The issue is with backing down from mass gun ownership which isn't going to happen, when they should be addressing the harder social issues.
Neither can I.
Although given the free choice of deadly devices, people still drive around in square 4x4's knowing full well that they cause more injuries to pedestrians. Someone should think of the children.
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What did you expect...the place is a haven for cartels.