Driver pushes cyclist under bus, escapes punishment

One More Solo · 16 Dec 2012 at 10:18

It's a tricky case. The driver says that he opened the door a bit to see if anyone was coming, but presumably he had to do that because the tints on his windows were so dark that he couldn't see. If he did only open it a little but hit the cyclist then the cyclist was too close to the car although the onus is on the driver to open the door safely.

Then the bus driver should have left sufficient room to stop but obviously didn't. It's just a culmination of small errors by all parties that end tragically, similar incidents probably occur countless times in London every day without anyone being killed.

Addicted · 16 Dec 2012 at 10:41

Sounds like negligence of the driver to actually check his mirrors before opening the door. The blame falls on him, and considering someone DIED from it, I think he should be punished accordingly.

Sure, it's something that can easily happen to anyone, but the cyclist died due to his carelessness.

Meridian · 16 Dec 2012 at 11:47

Addicted said:
Sounds like negligence of the driver to actually check his mirrors before opening the door. The blame falls on him, and considering someone DIED from it, I think he should be punished accordingly.

Sure, it's something that can easily happen to anyone, but the cyclist died due to his carelessness.

Again I will use my favourite analogy: you throw a piece of litter on the ground. An old lady slips on it, falls, fractures her skull, and dies of it. Are you guilty of manslaughter? Because this is what you are suggesting. As I've already said, the tests for manslaughter go a lot further than merely: "Person A carried out act B, and as the result of a chain of events, person C died". Many people open car doors in front of cyclists, but it very rarely results in death - the fact that this is headline news should tell you that. There's a vast gulf between a act of carelessness which unfortunately results in a death, and an act of such criminal negligence that a death was clearly a realistic possibility - which it wasn't here. But for the bus, the cyclist would probably only have cuts and bruises.

Dogbreath · 16 Dec 2012 at 11:53

Richie said:
no one has brought up the fact that it is actually an offence to open your car door without due care and attention yet? The offence is s.105 of the The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1986/1078/regulation/105/made

I don't believe anyone has suggested he is not guilty of an offence, just that it isn't manslaughter.

d_brennen · 16 Dec 2012 at 12:20

Richie said:
no one has brought up the fact that it is actually an offence to open your car door without due care and attention yet? The offence is s.105 of the The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1986/1078/regulation/105/made

Quite clear in the article

But this offence is very minor. It is dealt with by magistrates, the lowest criminal court, and their powers are limited to a fine. The driver can plead guilty by letter and they would not even get points on their licence.

Mr Jack · 16 Dec 2012 at 12:24

Meridian said:
Again I will use my favourite analogy: you throw a piece of litter on the ground. An old lady slips on it, falls, fractures her skull, and dies of it. Are you guilty of manslaughter? Because this is what you are suggesting.

I think we're all bright enough understand that things might have different levels of recklessness involved.

Meridian · 16 Dec 2012 at 16:19

Mr Jack said:
I think we're all bright enough understand that things might have different levels of recklessness involved.

I remain unconvinced, based on some of the replies in this and similar threads, but that's a whole other matter. You are, of course correct - but most people would put this down at the very low end unless they knew about the death it caused.

Dogbreath · 16 Dec 2012 at 16:31

Addicted said:
Sounds like negligence of the driver to actually check his mirrors before opening the door. The blame falls on him, and considering someone DIED from it, I think he should be punished accordingly.

Sure, it's something that can easily happen to anyone, but the cyclist died due to his carelessness.

How come you apparently know more about this accident than the jury?

Mr Jack · 16 Dec 2012 at 16:38

Meridian said:
I remain unconvinced, based on some of the replies in this and similar threads, but that's a whole other matter. You are, of course correct - but most people would put this down at the very low end unless they knew about the death it caused.

It was reckless regardless. Anyone who drives a car should (a) understand that opening a door without looking is a threat to other road users and (b) understand that knocking a cyclist under a bus is likely to be fatal. Getting lucky when you mess it up is something I'm sure we're all glad of; but that doesn't make it not reckless.

Mr Jack · 16 Dec 2012 at 16:41

Dogbreath said:
How come you apparently know more about this accident than the jury?

The jury was not asked to rule on whether he knocked the cyclist under the bus, they were asked to decide whether he was guilty of manslaughter.

d_brennen · 16 Dec 2012 at 16:45

Mr Jack said:
It was reckless regardless. Anyone who drives a car should (a) understand that opening a door without looking is a threat to other road users and (b) understand that knocking a cyclist under a bus is likely to be fatal. Getting lucky when you mess it up is something I'm sure we're all glad of; but that doesn't make it not reckless.

The driver didn't "knock the cyclist under the bus" as per the inflammatory thread title. There was a collision R.E. cyclist and car door, cyclist fell, the bus ran the cyclist over. Seems like there was more than one mans negligence going on here, perhaps the driver, the bus driver and the cyclist (posthumously) should all be be found guilty of something? The jury weren't convinced either

shine · 16 Dec 2012 at 16:51

The Running Man said:
Didn't Patrick kluivert get found guilty for manslaughter whilst driving? Think he got community service and lost his license. This case sounds like it warrants that kind of sentence minimum ..

That case was different, he was driving in excess of the speed limit and lost control of his car.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/kluivert-seeking-calmer-waters-1336303.html

Mr Jack · 16 Dec 2012 at 18:14

d_brennen said:
The driver didn't "knock the cyclist under the bus" as per the inflammatory thread title. There was a collision R.E. cyclist and car door, cyclist fell, the bus ran the cyclist over.

Tosh and piffle. The driver reckless and carelessly opened his door into the path of the cyclist, causing the collision and knocking the cyclist over into the path of the bus. His actions caused the death of the cyclist and he is the only one of the three that is to blame.

Seems like there was more than one mans negligence going on here, perhaps the driver, the bus driver and the cyclist (posthumously) should all be be found guilty of something? The jury weren't convinced either

Why on earth would be cyclist be guilty of anything? :confused:

There's no evidence that the bus driver did anything wrong either, he simply had no opportunity to react to the cyclist being knocked over.

Jokester · 16 Dec 2012 at 18:17

Gribs said:
The problem with these sort of incidents is that juries won't convict as they think it could be them in the dock.

This is how I see it as well.

Dabbles · 16 Dec 2012 at 18:42

Mr Jack said:
Why on earth would be cyclist be guilty of anything?

Riding in the 'door zone'?

Dogbreath · 16 Dec 2012 at 19:23

Mr Jack said:
Tosh and piffle. The driver reckless and carelessly opened his door into the path of the cyclist, causing the collision and knocking the cyclist over into the path of the bus. His actions caused the death of the cyclist and he is the only one of the three that is to blame.

Another person who believes they know more than the jury in the court :rolleyes:

Mr Jack · 16 Dec 2012 at 21:03

Dogbreath said:
Another person who believes they know more than the jury in the court

Again, the Jury did not decide on whether or not the collision occurred, but whether it was manslaughter. The events as I described them are the events as witnesses to the event described them.

GeX · 16 Dec 2012 at 21:03

Dabbles said:
Riding in the 'door zone'?

The 'door zone'? I'll remember that next time I'm riding to work and cycle right down the dotted line, that'll go down well I'm sure.

ubersonic · 17 Dec 2012 at 09:45

I have to be honest here, if the combined cycle/bus lane was wide enough for a bus, it was also wide enough for the cyclist to give the parked vehicle a doors width of space while passing it (as per HWC) this event was tragic but the cyclist was also negligent in his actions.

Muffin` · 17 Dec 2012 at 10:05

Mr Jack said:
Again, the Jury did not decide on whether or not the collision occurred, but whether it was manslaughter. The events as I described them are the events as witnesses to the event described them.

You describe the events in an aggressive, emotive and sensationalist way so don't be surprised when people don't take you seriously.