Hugo Chavez has died

[No1newts]

So which are you? The one who believes the headline news bulletins, the one who assumes they are (mostly) lies, or the one who goes off in search of his own answers?

Trying to work out if Hugo Chavez was a good or a bad man is challenging. There's a lot of information (and misinformation) in both directions. The safest conclusion seems to be that, as far as politicians and revolutionaries go, he wasn't the worst kind of guy. We can look down on some of his actions, but at the end of the day, Latin America is a very different (more turbulent and more dangerous) place than Europe. The elite in the developed world use Latin America, Africa and the Middle East as a playground, always pulling strings for their own game. How does anyone rule in their people's interest in such circumstances without making mistakes?

This is a good post.

I am one of those who reads, digests researches wider then forms an opinion.

I agree that it is a difficult topic to get a true view on unless you actually live there (like with most things) I am normally irritated though by most posters in here who come out with **** like "he ****** off America so he's great, RIP" when they in real fact probably have no clue and are forming an opinion simply by going against common knowledge. The reading is all there however most who disagree do so by just saying "it's biased" without providing anything of their own to dispute the fact rather than vague assertions with no merit or factual basis.

I'm not suggesting this is you, I'm merely challenging those who come out with **** like "he was a great man, don't believe what you read" garbage. If someone can show and quantify this I will happily listen they never can though.

 

[FTM]

he was excellent at bluster and posturing for his fellow south americans whilst still dealing in private..he was happy to sign deals to sell millions of barrels of oil the the USA..at one point 45% of PDVSA production went to the states

 

[Freakbro]

he was excellent at bluster and posturing for his fellow south americans whilst still dealing in private..he was happy to sign deals to sell millions of barrels of oil the the USA..at one point 45% of PDVSA production went to the states

What, he sold his oil?!? Egads...what an evil man he was...

Oh, but don't forget about the free heating oil he supplied to the US poor for the last 7 years...

http://www.policymic.com/mobile/art...g-aid-to-u-s-poor-following-obama-budget-cuts

 

[hurfdurf]

What, he sold his oil?!? Egads...what an evil man he was...

Indeed, what a really daft criticism of him. He was forced to operate in the system that he was in, he wasn't going to hurt his people by not dealing with the powers that be out of principle, only an idiot would have their people starve based on something like that.

He was a truly great man.

 

[Street]

This is a good post.

I am one of those who reads, digests researches wider then forms an opinion.

I agree that it is a difficult topic to get a true view on unless you actually live there (like with most things) I am normally irritated though by most posters in here who come out with **** like "he ****** off America so he's great, RIP" when they in real fact probably have no clue and are forming an opinion simply by going against common knowledge. The reading is all there however most who disagree do so by just saying "it's biased" without providing anything of their own to dispute the fact rather than vague assertions with no merit or factual basis.

I'm not suggesting this is you, I'm merely challenging those who come out with **** like "he was a great man, don't believe what you read" garbage. If someone can show and quantify this I will happily listen they never can though.

I was having a discussion about him today with somebody and I mentioned that Venezuela's crime rate had soared to give them one of the highest crime rates in the world. Her response was, "those facts are biased, they're probably made up by the US." She shut up when I said they were from the Venezuelans themselves and said we'll have to agree to disagree then. Reminded me of that Stewart Lee quote, “you can prove anything with facts, I prefer to rely on instincts, and blind prejudice!”

 

[Woden]

Indeed, what a really daft criticism of him. He was forced to operate in the system that he was in, he wasn't going to hurt his people by not dealing with the powers that be out of principle, only an idiot would have their people starve based on something like that.

He was a truly great man.

Umm, have you seen the country since he took over? It's a mess.

 

[hurfdurf]

Umm, have you seen the country since he took over? It's a mess.

Did you see it before he took over?! It's far better than it was before he arrived. Compare like with like, don't be so disingenuous.

 

[Tom_ed1987]

A friend of mine spent many years there. His opinion was Chavez undoubtedly had good intentions initially and did improve the life of the very poor, but in the process destroyed the middle class and crushed aspiration for anyone who didn't dream of working in a government admin role. Typical socialist stuff, made possible through the river of black gold.

 

[hurfdurf]

A friend of mine spent many years there. His opinion was Chavez undoubtedly had good intentions initially and did improve the life of the very poor, but in the process destroyed the middle class and crushed aspiration for anyone who didn't dream of working in a government admin role. Typical socialist stuff, made possible through the river of black gold.

That middle class was built on the backs and corruptly taking advantage of the poor, Chavez did away with the extend of corruption and bought it in line with most modern democracies in that kind of economic situation.

 

[Iraklis F.C.]

had good intentions initially and did improve the life of the very poor, but in the process destroyed the middle class and crushed aspiration for anyone who didn't dream of working in a government admin role. Typical socialist stuff, made possible through the river of black gold.

omg this sounds so familiar it aint a joke...and there isnt black gold too

 

[Woden]

Did you see it before he took over?! It's far better than it was before he arrived. Compare like with like, don't be so disingenuous.

The country's murder rate begs to differ, trippled under his rule and now the highest in the world. Along with the mass corruption that sees government funds just dissapear.

I have no doubt Chavez started with good intentions. And while he did some good work, he has also overseen massive social corruption and stripped away rights of the people.

 

[McPhee]

Are there more murders? Or are there more reported murders? Playing devil's advocate here. I don't know the answer. It could be either. People having a fixed address and a police force that they have more trust in could lead to more murders getting reported; the victims are no longer shanty ghosts and the police now serve all, rather than just their rich 1%er overlords. Or, the social upheaval and widespread corruption could lead to more murders taking place. Could well be a bit of both.

 

[Woden]

I could understand a blip being due to a more organised (for want of a better term) country. But this is a MASSIVE rise over ten years.

 

[momentimori]

What use is reducing the income gap if all your policies did was cause a brain drain on the country, and kept the country in largely a third-world state.... in the name of 'income equality'?

They are sat on some of the world's biggest oil reserves, but oil output is down because they simple can't keep or win the engineers or expertise to extract it.

So providing free healthcare and education, cutting absolute poverty by 75% and replacing shacks with proper housing for the poor is bad?

It's not low income that make a country a member of the third world but poor infrastructure; in this regard he left his country in a significantly better position than when he first became president.

He has significantly improved the quality of life for the vast majority of the population of his country at the expense of the old guard of corrupt oligarchs and foreign investors who objected to extremely generous exploitative concessions being renegotiated to more equitable ones.

 

[Muffin`]

So providing free healthcare and education, cutting absolute poverty by 75% and replacing shacks with proper housing for the poor is bad?

The healthcare and education is paid for by the oil, look at what Hatter has to say on where his oil production is going, when you can't get it out you cannot pay for the healthcare and education.

There's also the argument that banking your social reforms on something as volatile as oil prices is madness in itself!

Also his 'universities' don't hold much weight because of the way they are run and ironically keeps the people who its for unemployable outside his state comapnys. Those with brains are leaving in droves, this is another indication that his policy's weren't working.

It's not low income that make a country a member of the third world but poor infrastructure; in this regard he left his country in a significantly better position than when he first became president.

He has significantly improved the quality of life for the vast majority of the population of his country at the expense of the old guard of corrupt oligarchs and foreign investors who objected to extremely generous exploitative concessions being renegotiated to more equitable ones.

There's no argument that he didn't invest in infrastructure but by forcing out company's he's stifled the employment opportunities for the poor and created and even bigger dependence on the state. People cannot expect to be more than paper pushers for the state or a member of the army. That's not actual progress, it's just fanciful fluff by the skimming guardian readers.

 

[Muffin`]

That middle class was built on the backs and corruptly taking advantage of the poor, Chavez did away with the extend of corruption and bought it in line with most modern democracies in that kind of economic situation.

Corruption is gone eh? Christ, learn something new everyday.

 

[Muffin`]

Did you see it before he took over?! It's far better than it was before he arrived. Compare like with like, don't be so disingenuous.

What's better? What's worse?

 

[No1newts]

The healthcare and education is paid for by the oil, look at what Hatter has to say on where his oil production is going, when you can't get it out you cannot pay for the healthcare and education.

There's also the argument that banking your social reforms on something as volatile as oil prices is madness in itself!

Also his 'universities' don't hold much weight because of the way they are run and ironically keeps the people who its for unemployable outside his state comapnys. Those with brains are leaving in droves, this is another indication that his policy's weren't working.



There's no argument that he didn't invest in infrastructure but by forcing out company's he's stifled the employment opportunities for the poor and created and even bigger dependence on the state. People cannot expect to be more than paper pushers for the state or a member of the army. That's not actual progress, it's just fanciful fluff by the skimming guardian readers.

But he "opposed" (and by opposed those who have a clue realise it was he merely set up his own empire suiting himself without engaging with the world, he didn't "oppose" anything) America and that makes him great! All these people who hate America so much whilst consuming American goods, watching American shows and living in a world that is largely led by the nose by American values (rightly or wrongly.)

We all hate America so he stick one to them and is thus a great man regardless of what he did in reality.








In case no one realises because this thread is seeming a little niave at times, that was an ironic post, like most in here though they seem to be unintended.

 

[estebanrey]

He screwed over big business and gave the money to the poor, that makes him a 'hero' in the eyes of the left which is fine if you ignore how he has screwed the rest of the country up and I would wager made those poor people poorer in the long term.

Despite the fact that he presided over the longest and most exuberant increase in oil revenue in Venezuela’s history, they now have a HUGE fiscal deficit, inflation is through the roof, a horrendous misalignment of exchange rates and whilst Chavez has been in power they fell to the bottom of the rankings that measure international competitiveness, ease of doing business, or attractiveness to foreign investors, while rising to the top of the list of the world’s most corrupt countries.

Yet this is either hardly mentioned or completely left out of the likes of the Guardian/Independent – who only show the ‘facts’ & ‘statistics’ put out from Chavez’s regime itself.

I mean this guy openly referred to the likes of Mugabi and Gaddaffi as ‘brothers’ – what kind of ‘hero’ is this? Hear him in conferences and he sounds like drunken bigoted bloke down the pub – slamming his fists when waxing lyrical about his opinions and abusing people with vulgar insults.

The reason he is deemed a ‘hero’ by the left is because he fits the narrative of the brave southern American revolutionary fighting against the evil imperialist empire of the US. Yet his methods (locking up opponents) etc are practically the same used by the right.

It reminds of an interview did with Stanley Kubrick bout Clockwork Orange talking about a leftist radical writer & the right wing minister who both attempt to manipulate & use the main character in the film.

The Minister, played by Anthony Sharp, is clearly a figure of the Right. The writer, Patrick Magee, is a lunatic of the Left.

"The common people must be led, driven, pushed!' he pants into the telephone. 'They will sell their liberty for an easier life!'”

But these could be the very words of a fascist.

Yes, of course. They differ only in their dogma. Their means and ends are hardly distinguishable.