Anyone ever become an atheist after believing?

[crinkleshoes]

I like to think logic is consistent is just that we all do it wrong.

One way to look at it - but I prefer to think logic is subjective.

There is likely a strictly defined way that everything works... it's our arrogance that we already understand the principles and just need to fill in the blanks that annoys me. Without questioning the greater picture, where will new ideas come from?

I guess another way to phrase your viewpoint would be:

"true logic is directly linked to the one true understanding"

Apologies if I got the wrong end of the stick.

Not exactly, it's just a conclusion drawn from the expanding nature of the universe. For the most part you'll get a "we don't know what happened before that".

However if you follow this process to its conclusion at some point you hit the barrier of "OK, something came from nothing" or "something has just always been". This is the same thought process as "god came from nothing" or "god has always been".

I think most atheists will accept thats a complete and utter mind ****. They just don't believe that adding god in helps it make any more sense.

A fair way to put it, we don't disagree here... I'd just add that in my opinion, both opinions are a logical conclusion - even though they both require leaps of faith.

The observer effect is a complete and utter mind ****. It's like magic to me, I really don't understand how that can happen. However it doesn't do anything for me to start looking for a higher power.

For me it's specifically the link that a conscious observation affects the outcome.

For this to happen, it suggests a particle interaction outside of our normal experience of time.

Alternately - if consciousness is a part of everything - perhaps even the fundamental building blocks of the universe - perhaps the base string is a portion of a conscious projection (hologram).

If it is all made of the same, conscious, building blocks - then the interaction does not have to be outside of our standard time reference.

Perhaps either the collective consciousness decides the outcome or allows us to access the outcome relevant to that observation.

If you're interested in these ideas - I suggest "The Quantum Activist" by Amit Goswami. His ideas differ slightly in certain aspects, but the main ideas are very similar.

This then lead me to think about zero point / vacuum energy. What if these dualistic explosions of perfectly opposing energetic particles are explosions of consciousness?

What if the universe is a growing organism, the whole thing is conscious.

I've never liked the theory of inflation and always found the importance of fractals to this universe to be very interesting. Cell division feels like it is a better explanation than inflation.

When you look at the structure of galaxy super-clusters - they look almost identical to brain neuron structure.

Then I started thinking about purpose... it just started to seem that there are too many coincidences on this tiny planet for it to be independent of any influence. Sure it could be explained and random chance in a sea of probabilities, I just don't think that anymore.

The point I'm going to make has been raised a lot of times on this forum but it fits perfectly with this. Many elite scientists from the past, all smarter than me, have turned to god when they've reached the limit of their understanding.

I believe it's your ego that makes you go to a higher power because you don't want to accept you don't know the answers when it's possible to figure out. We probably won't know the answer in our lifetime but I'm willing to bet someone will figure it out.

This video is posted a lot, but it's worth the watch to show my point:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ti3mtDC2fQo

Better men than I have been folly to such thinking.

It may well be that simple and I would have continued to think along similar lines had it not been for the very direct experience I mentioned above.

Take it for what you want, I know even only a couple of months ago that I wouldn't have believed what I typed in my last post.

 

[ringo747]

Snip

Absolutely fascinating indeed! Is there any concept of worship with your new found beliefs? Sounds really interesting.

 

[Spektor]

It's extremely hard for me to explain what I experienced as *just* my imagination - although I'll admit, it's possible.

It wouldn't have to be your imagination. You could have actually experienced such sensations through such things as a stroke, seizure, various drugs. Infact the next bit where you described feeling 'one' as part of a greater shared consciousness is something people who have suffered strokes have described which is attributed to the temporary loss of connection of the logical and thinking half of the brain. Poor interpretation of your own experiences isn't evidence for a higher being.

When you look at the structure of galaxy super-clusters - they look almost identical to brain neuron structure.

And 5 seconds watching any simulation of mavity on large quantities of matter, galaxy formation and such, will show you how silly that kind of notion is. You take 2 competing bodies of mavity surrounded by matter, they will begin to attract it, most of it will merge into either of the bodies pretty quickly. However the matter between each of them is split between them but also attracted to either much more slowly due to the counter acting mavity of the other creating the long strands of matter... scale that up to galaxy clusters in a universe and you get the same behaviour. There is nothing groundbreaking or consciousness shifting in this.

 

[PiKe]

I was an atheist but now I worship at the church of the silver ball.

 

[crinkleshoes]

Sure I think this was your imagination / hallucination / mind playing ticks on you but it's still interesting. More info please. Where, when, why?

For the record, I wish I could believe. The prospect of nothing after death is morbid. I doubt I'll ever get there though.

That is some epiphany you must have had Crinkleshoes....it sounds fascinating.

Absolutely fascinating indeed! Is there any concept of worship with your new found beliefs? Sounds really interesting.

Wow... thanks for the positive responses, I was expecting to be written off as a complete loon (rather than just a partial one, lol).

Ringo - no concept of worship at all. I felt the need to say thank you for the experience, that was all really and that was my choice.

It took me through a form of life-review - but it wasn't for a judgmental purpose - it was only for me to figure out the purpose of my life - which came back with the simple answer of love.

The whole idea of the wrathful God from some early scriptures seems silly - Jesus supposedly left us with only one teaching rather than a set of rules - "love each other as I have loved you".

The only real purpose in life appears to be to find love, whether that's for yourself or for others. I used to laugh at hippies! Seems they got things a bit more right than I did.

Since then, as you can imagine, I've thought a lot more about it and read/listened to the interpretations of a lot of others.

I like the ideas that this existence is about disconnection and learning to re-connect. Or facing death in the finite in order to appreciate an infinite enjoyment. Or perhaps in order for a deity to be truly omniscient, it has to have direct experience of everything and our experience contributes to the whole.

Throughout my experience it asked absolutely nothing of me - it only wanted to show me love and be there for me to ask whatever I wished. It seemed happy that I wanted to connect.

Although, I was disappointed with the explanation I got at the time - I was looking for something more complicated and intricate. It was my first question, I asked why (do we exist) and it replied with a very simple answer - "because I can and because I wanted to". It seemed disappointed that I was... later on I realised that that's actually a rather wonderful reason to be. A couple of days later I was back on the plane to Basel, I was tired so instead of reading the book I'd brought with me - I closed my eyes and started thinking. I realised that I had asked for that experience and so perhaps I could communicate and explain that I'd realised that it was actually a good reason - I just couldn't comprehend it at the time. I asked if I could ever see it again as I'd like to. The warmth, love and white/gold/silver light came back while I was sitting there with my eyes closed - fully awake - and it wasn't just the sun coming through the window - that colour is very distinctive, as are the feelings.



aln - There have been four independent experiences, three in my UK home and the one mentioned above on the plane. One primary experience.

They've been with a guide and my partner, the guide is quite experienced at exploring the alternate planes of existence. He's never directly explained anything to me, just pointed me in the right direction - so it's not as if I've had explanations from him that I'm now attributing to my own experience. He's answered questions after I've experienced. It's very interesting - it seems to be incredibly similar to the Tibetan book of the dead.

The first two, I glimpsed what I thought may have been something along the lines of a deity. I kept doubting it and writing it off as a delusion, it couldn't be possible - it was just my mind playing tricks on me.

That's why it took the time to use my own method of thinking, my own personal logic in order to prove to me that it existed. It guided me through a form of analysis of the things happening around me to show to me that what I was experiencing wasn't a delusion.

The reaction of my cats to it, it's ability to manipulate time, the way it was showing me things that I have never and would never imagine in my previous state, I had a set music playlist which it had manipulated to tunes I'd never heard, it's ability to move the source of the audio around the room and into the very fibre of my being and it's ability to let me view through the eyes of both my partner and guide. There were other things too, like its unfathomable intelligence, but those were the main points.

Meditation is about dissolving the ego, being free of thought... once you can temporarily disconnect from your ego and dissolve into the infinity of nothingness that is the lack of thought - it's amazing what you can experience.

It wouldn't have to be your imagination. You could have actually experienced such sensations through such things as a stroke, seizure, various drugs. Infact the next bit where you described feeling 'one' as part of a greater shared consciousness is something people who have suffered strokes have described which is attributed to the temporary loss of connection of the logical and thinking half of the brain. Poor interpretation of your own experiences isn't evidence for a higher being.

If that makes you feel better, I have no issue with you believing that. I hope you find peace within yourself, that's all I was looking for.

On the other hand - in a lot of near death experiences, meditative experiences, psychedelic induced experience - there are an incredible number of similarities. I've gone through the thought that it may just be a similar reaction due to our similar make up, but there are two things that disagree with that.

In numerous out of body experiences, people have been able to describe things that have been out of view of themselves and those around them. People have no reason to lie about this. If you're interested - I could suggest a few books. And non-local telepathy that couldn't be as simple as just electromagnetic interaction.

And 5 seconds watching any simulation of mavity on large quantities of matter, galaxy formation and such, will show you how silly that kind of notion is. You take 2 competing bodies of mavity surrounded by matter, they will begin to attract it, most of it will merge into either of the bodies pretty quickly. However the matter between each of them is split between them but also attracted to either much more slowly due to the counter acting mavity of the other creating the long strands of matter... scale that up to galaxy clusters in a universe and you get the same behaviour. There is nothing groundbreaking or consciousness shifting in this.

And one second looking at pictures of the two next to each other will show you the similarity in appearance.

Similar structure doesn't make my idea correct, not at all.

But it seems like a more simple explanation than breaking the "laws" of physics with inflation occurring for no reason other than to bodge two theories to fit together.

Try forming your own ideas, rather than repeating the ideas of others. I would much prefer to come up with 100 wrong theories than not even try to think of 1, it's more interesting and entertaining.

I was an atheist but now I worship at the church of the silver ball.

Lol... how many points?

 

[Spektor]

I was expecting to be written off as a complete loon

Beyond the couple of people enabling you, I'd say quite a few have done this

Try forming your own ideas, rather than repeating the ideas of others. I would much prefer to come up with 100 wrong theories than not even try to think of 1, it's more interesting and entertaining.

Probably the most spectacularly ridiculous thing I've read in this thread. You essentially know you're talking utter nonsense then but because you find your own nonsense interesting and entertaining (many don't) you'd rather stick to spouting it than actually trying to understand the knowledge that our species has tirelessly gathered and devoted generations to learn about

Feels like a great disservice to the men and women that gave their lives to expand our understanding of the universe - but hey ho - enjoy your 'interesting and entertaining ideas'.

 

[crinkleshoes]

Beyond the couple of people enabling you, I'd say quite a few have done this

Meh, three positive comments vs one negative... I'm happy with that... I was expecting worse.

Perhaps an interesting question would be - why do you feel the need to squash the ideas of others, rather than accept others ideas, beliefs and expression?

I expect it's a reflection of your own ego.

I'm not here to hurt you

Probably the most spectacularly ridiculous thing I've read in this thread. You essentially know you're talking utter nonsense then but because you find your own nonsense interesting and entertaining (many don't) you'd rather stick to spouting it than actually trying to understand the knowledge that our species has tirelessly gathered and devoted generations to learn about

Feels like a great disservice to the men and women that gave their lives to expand our understanding of the universe - but hey ho - enjoy your 'interesting and entertaining ideas'.

Given that I have a masters degree in Astrophysics which included a year of research at the Harvard Smithsonian institute, I wouldn't say lack of understanding is the issue.

Quite the opposite, it was my understanding of quantum theory that looped back to grander ideas through no expectation of my own.

Without dreamers, without people thinking outside of the box of accepted existence - those people and that knowledge you mention - would not exist.

... Not quite sure who gave their life to come up with the theory of inflation. Unless you mean dedicating their life, I suppose... interesting that you would consider gathering scientific knowledge to be "giving up" ones life. Do you not think that they chose their path? Do you not think they enjoyed what they did or perhaps it brought them fulfillment.

You, and the un-named collective you are seemingly attempting to speak for, appear to have a rather dim outlook

 

[Spektor]

Perhaps an interesting question would be - why do you feel the need to squash the ideas of others, rather than accept others ideas, beliefs and expression?

Why do you expect to be able to talk **** and not have your ideas challenged in anyway?

I accept your right to hold your ideas, beliefs and express them -- but that doesn't curtail my right to pull you up on them.

Then resorting to the childish "lolego" "u mad son" replies? aren't you just the totally enlightened little soul, your telepathic sessions must be like bad reddit threads.

 

[Castiel]

Why do you expect to be able to talk **** and not have your ideas challenged in anyway?

I accept your right to hold your ideas, beliefs and express them -- but that doesn't curtail my right to pull you up on them.

Then resorting to the childish "lolego" "u mad son" replies? aren't you just the totally enlightened little soul, your telepathic sessions must be like bad reddit threads.

You are not really 'pulling him up' you are dismissing him out of hand and trying to belittle him, with little respect for his ideas or any real attempt to understand his perspective. You appear to have judged him entirely on a very limited expression of his beliefs and a brief explanation of his personal investigation into his own experiences, which he freely admits are subjective and he is unsure of how to explain them.

 

[crinkleshoes]

Why do you expect to be able to talk **** and not have your ideas challenged in anyway?

I believe I expressed multiple times that I did.

I accept your right to hold your ideas, beliefs and express them -- but that doesn't curtail my right to pull you up on them.

I never said it did - please go ahead - I have yet to see any attempt to do that. Discussion is always interesting, pointless insults - not so much.

Then resorting to the childish "lolego" "u mad son" replies? aren't you just the totally enlightened little soul, your telepathic sessions must be like bad reddit threads.

I'm afraid you're the one looking to apply negative meaning to my comments - not me.

You are not really 'pulling him up' you are dismissing him out of hand and trying to belittle him, with little respect for his ideas or any real attempt to understand his perspective. You appear to have judged him entirely on a very limited expression of his beliefs and a brief explanation of his personal investigation into his own experiences, which he freely admits are subjective and he is unsure of how to explain them.

Exactly, thank you.

 

[aln]

...

Thanks for that. Again I'll repeat while I do not subscribe to the existence of a god, but I did find that fascinating. Mostly I think you might be going nuts, but part of me is jealous and it's interesting that whatever this was it may have resulted in you being some what of a better person. At the very least I can understand where you're coming from given these experiences though.

I've actually considered all the possibilities you've said before, none of it is very shocking and I actually like the idea of rejecting typical religion and deciding what spirituality means to you. I also like the idea that if there is a creator that it doesn't necessarily mean it's anything like us. This is probably my biggest issue with organized religion, the hubris that we'd be created in his image as it were.

The obvious question is what makes you so special that you can do that when I can't? I wouldn't question it too hard if it makes you happy though. As long as you don't get preachy or use it as a reason to bash folks, you aren't doing any harm with your beliefs and I can respect them in that case. Also to be fair, there is more logic and reason in examining what you experienced than basing your beliefs from text. However the same process leads you to doubt yourself, because I believe you know it isn't entirely logical, but doubt is healthy I don't think theres anything wrong with how you feel.

Anyways GL HF.

 

[crinkleshoes]

Thanks for that. Again I'll repeat while I do not subscribe to the existence of a god, but I did find that fascinating. Mostly I think you might be going nuts, but part of me is jealous and it's interesting that whatever this was it may have resulted in you being some what of a better person. At the very least I can understand where you're coming from given these experiences though.

I've actually considered all the possibilities you've said before, none of it is very shocking and I actually like the idea of rejecting typical religion and deciding what spirituality means to you. I also like the idea that if there is a creator that it doesn't necessarily mean it's anything like us. This is probably my biggest issue with organized religion, the hubris that we'd be created in his image as it were.

The obvious question is what makes you so special that you can do that when I can't? I wouldn't question it too hard if it makes you happy though. As long as you don't get preachy or use it as a reason to bash folks, you aren't doing any harm with your beliefs and I can respect them in that case. Also to be fair, there is more logic and reason in examining what you experienced than basing your beliefs from text. However the same process leads you to doubt yourself, because I believe you know it isn't entirely logical, but doubt is healthy I don't think theres anything wrong with how you feel.

Anyways GL HF.

Thanks, that's pretty much how I think.

After the second experience - I pretty much decided to allow myself to believe. Perhaps that's why I was able to have the third and most profound experience.

I decided that it didn't matter what I believe as long as it has no negative effect on anyone around me and I'm still able to function in this world.

In reality, it has made me a more accepting person, happier, open to new ideas and experiences, it's let me appreciate life, it's let me see the good in people whereas I used to see the misery. It's made me want to find a more fulfilling purpose and I feel that's going to lead to more happiness and contentment. There's no harm there and I think Castiel has already noticed the change in my approach to how I address people, heh.

I think we each need to make our own belief system - so I will never preach - sure I'll talk about my beliefs and, on occasion, maybe talk about the reasoning behind the beliefs... but only when asked about it.

I quite dislike the approach of types like Jehova's witnesses... I think their approach is wrong, no-one should have things they don't want shoved down their throat. On the other hand, I can finally understand why they do what they do... if you truly believed that you had the right answer and everyone who had the wrong answer was going to hell, wouldn't you feel it was your duty to help people out of that terrible fate?

While I feel they've got the wrong end of the stick and that there is no hell - only what you make or can accept - I do understand their desire.

Yes - the idea that we are closely related to something quite so powerful is mind boggling... on the other hand, I think that words are pointless to describe the ineffable - the best way to put it is that God is everything and nothing, the very essence of existence, materiality and spirituality. The only definition of infinity. To use words puts something that cannot be boxed into a box.

What makes me so special? I have no idea - I asked the very same question and got no answer. I have to figure that one out for myself. I got the impression that anyone who is willing to believe and accept can have access to the same - all you have to do is believe and ask... but then the hardest part is you have to be willing to accept and interpret the signals that can be presented to you. Such a direct connection as I was able to seemingly achieve does seem very rare. I count myself extremely lucky, if nothing more. If I can hope, it means I'm supposed to do something special - but I can easily write that off as delusions of grandeur.

From another perspective - perhaps I needed such an experience to achieve an existence that's meaningful to me - whereas you are fine by yourself. Could be a good thing that you don't have to have such an experience

I was questioning it very hard and pondering if I was going nuts or just pushing myself to experience what I wanted to believe subconsciously. It's all still possible, of course... but the good thing is, it's had a positive effect on me and those around me - so there's no harm in believing it was real.

When someone is open to the ideas, they will come seeking... a famous buddha quote is along the lines of:

"the teacher will find the student when the student is ready"

I think reincarnation is feasible - so perhaps not all will be ready in this incarnation and you have to go round and round until you are. Or perhaps - reincarnation is there for if/when you get bored of the infinite and want to learn to appreciate it again - or you want to have this existence back in order to rediscover your soul mate.

The film "What Dreams May Come" springs to mind.

I'd certainly be a proponent of direct experience rather than blind faith - if I ever discover the secret to direct experience, I'll be sure to share.

Doubt keeps you (semi) sane

 

[semi-pro waster]

You can't evaluate the evidence properly because the entire concept behind the belief is you can't disprove a negative. The entire point was to construct a ridiculous statement to show why the onus is on proving the existence rather than disproving it. It's just an exercise in attributing your logic to another situation to help you understand your folly. Many people seemingly can't do it.

I understand the argument and why you raised the point. That was as much about me attempting to explain that as an apathetic agnostic (about many things) I have no real need to make a decision on it except perhaps as an intellectual exercise. I've cut most of the rest of the post as I've got no major arguments with it.

I'm atheist when it comes to any organized religion and agnostic when it comes to spirituality on a whole. However as previously stated I believe backing the atheist view point is the logicigal decision, you generally understand me on this.

I'll make this debate short for you and everyone else though ( no offense but I get frustrated with claims of evidence when none surface ) if you want to argue that I'm wrong and that there is evidence suggesting god exists, come back to me with evidence and I'll either accept that I was wrong or I'll thoughtfully explain* why I do not believe it is a legitimate example of evidence. Until that point, I really have nothing else to add to this discussion and I'm really fed up of people claiming there is logic and reason behind the view point without actually bringing any to the table.

* Bring the best pieces though because I'm not going to spend my entire life arguing this case and even if I did (and did a fantastic job at it) it wouldn't change anyones mind.

I just wanted to reply so you didn't think I was being deliberately rude or that I'd missed it. I'm not going to be bringing any new evidence to the table, if you've got the slightest interest in questions regarding religion then you'll probably have seen most of the sources/information that I could show which might be pertinent. There's no benefit to either of us in rehashing it - I suspect we're actually not all that far apart in terms of our (dis)belief but maybe I'm a bit more generous or foolish if you prefer in saying that there is evidence available.

I look at it more as a matter of weight that you should put on the evidence rather than dismissing it as evidence entirely - this may be due to differing backgrounds. For what it is worth mine is legal rather than scientific although I'd hope I've got at least a passable understanding of the broad parameters in which science operates.

 

[aln]

I understand the argument and why you raised the point. That was as much about me attempting to explain that as an apathetic agnostic (about many things) I have no real need to make a decision on it except perhaps as an intellectual exercise. I've cut most of the rest of the post as I've got no major arguments with it.

I just wanted to reply so you didn't think I was being deliberately rude or that I'd missed it. I'm not going to be bringing any new evidence to the table, if you've got the slightest interest in questions regarding religion then you'll probably have seen most of the sources/information that I could show which might be pertinent. There's no benefit to either of us in rehashing it - I suspect we're actually not all that far apart in terms of our (dis)belief but maybe I'm a bit more generous or foolish if you prefer in saying that there is evidence available.

I look at it more as a matter of weight that you should put on the evidence rather than dismissing it as evidence entirely - this may be due to differing backgrounds. For what it is worth mine is legal rather than scientific although I'd hope I've got at least a passable understanding of the broad parameters in which science operates.

I'd say your assessment is pretty much right. For me it always feels like they're counting like this: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10*. In my mind it's ****** up with that missing number. The more forgiving will give them credit for the numbers they did get but in the end we both disbelieve because of the lack of the 9, I'm just more harsh about it being missing.

More interestingly though is a lot of the people who make such arguments are probably both more articulate and smarter than myself. We all just have our blind spots and I believe this is theirs. Theres nothing wrong with it though, as I said I have no problems with faith unless you're utilising it as a weapon.

* Of course thats just how I see it. I accept it might be less obvious from your perspective.

@crinkleshoes - I have nothing interesting to add other than I believe the meaning of life is just what it means to you. For me, that's enough. Perhaps your experiences come from needing more, whether that's your psyche speaking to you or divine intervention doesn't really matter as long as you can continue to function in the world.

 

[mattyg]

I don't believe there is a higher power/God

But sometimes I wish there was.

I don't believe there is an Afterlife

But I wish there was


RIP to those we'll never meet again