Female Students Facing Sexual Harassment And Groping In University Lad Culture, Says NUS

[Angilion]

Perhaps there is an argument that using the word murder in other contexts is not appropriate either, but that's not what I'm trying to argue.

And that's leaving you with a weak, inconsistent argument.

I think that all three of the examples are inappropriate.

Let me stop you right there. This is not about being "naturally" inclined to do anything, this is about societal culture allowing certain prejudices to be relatively mainstream.

I'm sure we don't agree on which ones.

Women to a large degree are objectified and it's important for men to know that this isn't ok.

Ah, "objectified" has arrived.

OK, now I know it's pointless carrying on. Politicised buzzwords trump any line of argument. Although I appreciate the humour in you arguing against an offensive word being used out of context to mean something completely different and then doing exactly that yourself as part of the foundation of your argument.

 

[aln]

I haven't as it relates to the widely accepted definition of Rape and how it is associated.

You can't admit that I just fixed your argument for you? You're supposed to suffer from less hubris at your age, but irregardless I'm not gonna play this game with someone who cheats.

 

[Burnsy2023]

Did you actually just say that? I think you're the one belittling rape there pal.

I'm just suggesting that the root behaviours are still consistent between the two, obviously actual rape has other traits too, but the root behaviours are similar.

 

[grimm]

That is probably a good summary of my problem. It is socially acceptable for a specific culture (that's not really limited to age), and IMO it shouldn't be. Certain words should not be reclaimed for different contexts due to the mavity of the word. That said, in a gaming context you are not really using it any differently. When you "rape" someone in a game, what does it mean at a very base level? It means you're humalitating someone, it means that you're showing your superiority and power and that they're submissive. You may not quite think of it in those terms, but if you're killing someone in black ops and teabagging them, that's exactly what you're doing and that's no different to actual rape.

Actually, it doesn't mean any of that at all. It's just a word being used in a social context. The underlying meaning of the word when used in this context is completely gone. There is no intent to actually cause physical harm to someone.

You are trying to demonise the word. All a word really is is a collection of syllables, like calling someone a noob or saying that you pwned them. If there is no intent other than to say "I beat you" using the word that everyone else is using, then it can do no harm.

Like I said, people say "I'm going to steal your pen for a minute" doesn't mean that thievery is going to increase, or that thievery is going to become tolerated where I work. It's just a word that's being used in place of "borrow". If someone said "I'm going to steal your pen for a minute" in the 1920s then people would probably take it literally, because the language hasn't evolved to the point where it won't be taken literally yet. All we are seeing with the word "rape" being used socially is just our language evolving, just like with words like "noob" or "pwn" becoming more commonly used.

 

[Angilion]

[..] You may not quite think of it in those terms, but if you're killing someone in black ops and teabagging them, that's exactly what you're doing and that's no different to actual rape.

I really wasn't going to continue, but that's such a bizarre statement that I feel obliged to reply.

Beating someone in a game and teabagging them in a game is no different to actual rape...actually, yes, it's really very different.

It's not often that I write WTF?, but your post is one of my rare WTF moments.

 

[Burnsy2023]

I really wasn't going to continue, but that's such a bizarre statement that I feel obliged to reply.

Beating someone in a game and teabagging them in a game is no different to actual rape...actually, yes, it's really very different.

It's not often that I write WTF?, but your post is one of my rare WTF moments.

I'm just suggesting that the root behaviours are still consistent between the two, obviously actual rape has other traits too, but the root behaviours are similar.

What I said was poorly phrased, so I've edited it.

 

[Burnsy2023]

Actually, it doesn't mean any of that at all. It's just a word being used in a social context. The underlying meaning of the word when used in this context is completely gone. There is no intent to actually cause physical harm to someone.

You are trying to demonise the word. All a word really is is a collection of syllables, like calling someone a noob or saying that you pwned them. If there is no intent other than to say "I beat you" using the word that everyone else is using, then it can do no harm.

Like I said, people say "I'm going to steal your pen for a minute" doesn't mean that thievery is going to increase, or that thievery is going to become tolerated where I work. It's just a word that's being used in place of "borrow". If someone said "I'm going to steal your pen for a minute" in the 1920s then people would probably take it literally, because the language hasn't evolved to the point where it won't be taken literally yet. All we are seeing with the word "rape" being used socially is just our language evolving, just like with words like "noob" or "pwn" becoming more commonly used.

Ok, I have a questions for you, why do you think the word rape came to be used within the gaming fraternity?

 

[aln]

I'm just suggesting that the root behaviours are still consistent between the two, obviously actual rape has other traits too, but the root behaviours are similar.

I would give you there are some vague parallels given the humiliation aspect but I don't think theres enough to validate your opinion. We're moving pixels on the screen, nothing more, nothing less. I honestly just think it's a personal peeve of yours and no more.

Theres nothing particularly wrong with disliking something, but I don't think the argument can really be made that it's trivializing rape any more than we're trivializing slavery or murder. You can pull out the logical fallacy card if you want but I still think the point stands on merit.

Ok, I have a questions for you, why do you think the word rape came to be used within the gaming fraternity?

Is having him answer that important to you, because I have a pretty good idea.

 

[Castiel]

This offshoot between the two of you has popped up a question in my head which you might be able to answer, since you're a linguist.

Are there any languages in which words have only one meaning each? I doubt it, but I'm not certain and I'm curious enough to ask. As a follow-up question - is English unusual in the extent to which words can have multiple meanings?

In modern languages, the answer is generally no. Most words and phrases have multiple meanings particularly informally and in the use of slang. In ancient languages however it is more common that a specific word will have a specific meaning, and in others the phrase and how it is used decides how we understand the intent. English is not unusual, although it lends itself more to evolution of slang for two reasons, firstly it is a polyglot, a combination and mixture of different languages, it expresses in both assimilated derivatives and assimilated original words. Secondly it is the Lingua Franca, so it has effectively more exposure to other languages and cultural references which inform and create slang and allow more informal use of the language to become acceptable quicker and integrate more fully than for example French.

The use of the word Rape in recent years in slang is a good example, in some languages this would not be so easily accepted, and as you can see in this thread the initial and more widely accepted association of the word is less important when it comes to expression and it is not uncommon to see the use of words associated with violence, crime, sexual conduct and so used in a casual way to express something more trivial than what the words definition actually is in more formal terms. This has happened throughout the history of the English Language (and others), but there is some debate currently over the use of the word Rape in such a casual way, possibly because of the prevalence of sexism and crimes against women in our society.

 

[Castiel]

You can't admit that I just fixed your argument for you? You're supposed to suffer from less hubris at your age, but irregardless I'm not gonna play this game with someone who cheats.

I'm not having an argument..I am trying to explain why Burnsy and others feel the way they do.

You disagree, that is ok.

 

[grimm]

Ok, I have a questions for you, why do you think the word rape came to be used within the gaming fraternity?

Even if the initial intentions behind using the word "rape" within the gaming community were terrible crimes against humanity (which I very much doubt they were), there is no real malice behind it anymore, so I don't see why that question is relevant in all honesty.

I think honestly the first time I used it was when killing some AI characters, or saying "I got raped" whilst playing a driving game or something. Even when it was a fresh word being used within the gaming community I can't remember it being any more humiliating or degrading than someone saying that they "pwned" me or similar.

You just have to get your head around the fact that people don't actually use the word with the original meaning/intent attached to it, and haven't done so for quite some time.

Do you seriously think that someone who was beaten on a game to be told "I raped you" actually thought that the person who did it was going to come round to their house and sexually assault them? Do you think that the sexual assault connotation even crossed their minds for a second? To me the meaning is obvious because it's used at the exact time that the event happened with no possible chance of actual assault occurring.

 

[aln]

I'm not having an argument..I am trying to explain why Burnsy and others feel the way they do.

You disagree, that is ok.

Violence != Humiliation
making an argument != having an argument

I do disagree and I am OK with that.

Even if the initial intentions behind using the word "rape" within the gaming community were terrible crimes against humanity (which I very much doubt they were), there is no real malice behind it anymore, so I don't see why that question is relevant in all honesty.

It's just 1upmanship. One guy beat another guy and went "ahaha" I beat you. Sometime later a guy who got beat wins and is like "ahaha I owned you". Guy he said that to gets annoyed, when he beats him back, "raped".

It also should matter how badly you beat them but people often ignore that. You need look no further than UT99 and the shoutcaster dude yelling OWNAGE, HUMILIATION, UNBELIEVABLE and other crap like that to get the idea.

Personally I'd say the words were totally chosen because of their weight in society and the humiliation aspect more than anyone trying to derive direct meaning from them. The argument is that rape is somehow special in the list but I feel it was probably chosen for entirely the same reason slavery was and if anyone can think of a more taboo word with connotations to humiliation, it'll be next on the list.

 

[Castiel]

Violence != Humiliation
making an argument != having an argument

I do disagree and I am OK with that.

Violence and humiliation are both traits consistant with Rape, hence the associations I was explaining.

I wasn't making an argument for a specific pov of my own, I was attempting to offer some perspective on why people may find the casual use of the term unsuitable and in some cases offensive, particularly given the prevalence of sexism and crimes against women in ours and other societies, particularly in the current climate....it is not my opinion, but one expressed by many others.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/09/teen-slang-why-the-word-r_n_1194059.html

The following contains some profanity, but it is in context so I have used spoiler tags...if a don wishes it removed anyway please do so.

Spoiler

http://cornellsun.com/node/51178

I also note you made reference to this in your post above, and in that I agree with you, I also agree that taboos are often used in casual expression.

 

[aln]

Violence and humiliation are both traits consistant with Rape, hence the associations I was explaining.

I wasn't making an argument for a specific pov of my own, I was attempting to offer some perspective on why people may find the casual use of the term unsuitable and in some cases offensive.

Its fine if its not your point of view but either way you were trying to explain the point of view by making parallels between the violence in rape and associations of violence with using the word in gaming.

That doesn't work. It arguably can work when using humiliation but you only raised that as a point after I did*. Either you completely missed the point or you failed to express what you were really thinking. Personally I think it's the former, but I'll accept you saying it was the latter.

Also I'm in no way debating that violence and humiliation don't both play a part in rape, only that you switched from the former to the latter for your comparison as it originally didn't really make sense unless you were trying to make the argument that video games are actually violent.

You moved the goal posts. You really, really did. You're denying it but you should really just admit what you said as opposed to trying to express what you now think you meant to say. You don't even need to admit you were inherently wrong in understanding the point, just that you explained it wrong.

I could go back and deconstruct the text to make a side by side comparison but I'd actually rather show you more respect than that.

* I'm pretty sure I was the first one to do so too, others did too after me, but unlike you they hadn't already locked themselves into an argument that was wrong.

 

[Castiel]

Its fine if its not your point of view but either way you were trying to explain the point of view by making parallels between the violence in rape and associations of violence with using the word in gaming.

That doesn't work. It arguably can work when using humiliation but you only raised that as a point after I did*. Either you completely missed the point or you failed to explain what you were really thinking. Personally I think it's the former, but I'll accept you saying it was the latter.

Also I'm in no way debating that violence and humiliation don't both play a part in rape, only that you switched from the former to the latter for your comparison as it originally didn't really make sense unless you were trying to make the argument that video games are actually violent.

* I'm pretty sure I was the first one to do so too, others did too after me, but unlike you they hadn't already locked themselves into an argument that was wrong.

You keep saying it is wrong, yet I think you are misunderstanding the point, it isn't about what the kid intends when he used the word to his mate, but the associations it has to others and how it trivialises the word Rape generally. I understand, as does everyone that the kid isn't actually saying it is like Rape, but they are expressing an issue with the casual use of the word in such a trivial way.

And where you got the notion that I was making an argument about violence in video games I don't know, I was not referring to gamers in isolation, but to the use of the word casually by anyone in a context not consistent with the actual crime.....it is about the word Rape, what it means and how it is used and associated.

I posted the two articles because they express similar perspectives and they are written, not by older people like myself, but by the peers of the people who use the word as slang.

As for deconstructing my posts, you can do so if you wish...I did not specifically mention humiliation, I did not specifically mention power, coercion, duress, abuse of authority, anger, gratification, conte,pt or any number of other traits associated with Rape either...I was explaining that the slang use of the word still has associations to the formal use of the word, albeit far more casually. Your explanation that the word Rape, when used by Gamers is more associated with humiliation of an opponent, only illustrated my point more clearly as that is also a trait commonly found in a rapists modus operandi...... I am sorry if this confuses you, but I didn't think it necessary to construct a forum post in such a way that it expressed every nuance of the formal and casual use of the word Rape, I thought that a briefer and more accessible explanation would suffice.

 

[Robosapien]

Oh man, Castiel is totally raping aln.

Aln is crying in the corner with his bleeding prolapse hanging out.

 

[grimm]

You keep saying it is wrong, yet I think you are misunderstanding the point, it isn't about what the kid intends when he used the word to his mate, but the associations it has to others and how it trivialises the word Rape generally. I understand, as does everyone that the kid isn't actually saying it is like Rape, but they are expressing an issue with the casual use of the word in such a trivial way.

I am happy with that explanation, however there are always going to be divided opinions on the way our language is evolving and differing opinions on how it should be used. If 50% of the population take issue with the way a word is used, and the remaining 50% enjoy using the word in a casual/trivial manner, then there is no way that you can say that either side is right or wrong. What you can say is that our language is evolving and that this is something that is pretty much inevitable.

The act of rape is not being trivialised as far as I can tell. If this were the case then there would be a serious issue. I think there are far more important things to worry about than the way certain words are used. Words aren't the problem, intent is.

 

[!Sargent_Mango!]

what a bunch of over sensitive fairies the people of this country are becoming.

Lads stuff at uni is supposed to happen. Its young people having fun and finding out who they are.

So everyone should change because of one oversensitive mental case? Do me a favour..

I'm sick of the whining minority in this country getting favourable treatment all the time.

Lifes tough. A few drunk rugger lads called you ugly on a night out?! BOOHOO.

What a pathetic, spineless nation of cretins we are becoming. The older generation should know better than to pander to this utter nonsense.

Almost as bad as fat people complaining people call them fat, or won't employ them because they are sickeningly flabby.

 

[aln]

Sigh. Here we go. This is what you originally said:

whereas the word Rape which while it also has different definitions, they are all associated with extreme violence and engender the use of force.

I counter this saying that it does have an alternative meaning and thus you're wrong. Next post you then add humiliation but with a direct connection to force.

Even when you use the word Rape in the context that you are defending, it still relates to the use of force and violence (it is associating with the acts of seizure by force or humiliation by force)

Next post you then go back to your original violence / force.

only that the word Rape when used in such a way has associations with the use of force by violence

Next post you then switch tact again.

This is why it is used, because part of that association is from the humiliation and the act of beating.

You don't think going with violence and force, taking cue and switching to violence, force, or humiliation by force, back to violence and force, then finally to just humiliation is justification for me saying you're moving the goal posts? I do.

I also find it humorous that your switching tact directly reflects what others were suggesting in the thread before you said it. Alright you can sweep that under the carpet by saying you were only trying to explain what others were saying, but I still think you can get the point.

I really don't like making points that way, I'm tired and going to bed.

 

[Castiel]

I am happy with that explanation, however there are always going to be divided opinions on the way our language is evolving and differing opinions on how it should be used. If 50% of the population take issue with the way a word is used, and the remaining 50% enjoy using the word in a casual/trivial manner, then there is no way that you can say that either side is right or wrong. What you can say is that our language is evolving and that this is something that is pretty much inevitable.

The act of rape is not being trivialised as far as I can tell. If this were the case then there would be a serious issue. I think there are far more important things to worry about than the way certain words are used. Words aren't the problem, intent is.

I agree, there will be divided opinions, I can see both perspectives. I think you are correct insofar that intent is important, however we are still in our infancy socially with how we treat sexism and the crimes that relate to it such as Rape and sexual assault, and because of this the use of the word Rape as opposed to that of Murder, Kill, and so on is a little more sensitive.