Does UKIP have any longevity in politics?

I really take offence to any suggestion i am racist because I believe the immigration in this country is out of control. There are so many unemployed in this country, we just plain and simple dont have enough jobs to accommodate increased number of unskilled labour workers. Its just a simple fact.



You do understand, don't you, that there's a big gulf between unskilled jobs and unskilled employees? Actually many of the Eastern Europeans coming here are highly qualified, but cannot get jobs with those qualifications for various reasons. So they do unskilled work for a couple of years and then go back to their own country. As do most immigrants. And has been pointed out many times, they generally work harder and cheaper than locals. There are many reasons for unemployment, but immigrations comes a long way down the list.

And how do you propose to tackle the Demographic Time Bomb if you don't let young immigrants in to work? Locals simply aren't having enough children, whereas we do have a nice source of tax-paying labour out there.

Just because someone doesn't want immigrants doesn't mean that they are racist. It certainly increases the odds though. Most people who oppose immigration oppose it first, and think up reasons later. Finally, my old question: it so happens I'm an immigrant. Every job I've had, I've taken away from someone born here. Should I leave? If so, why?
 
I will add that many migrant workers can do low paid jobs purely because they live in shared houses often 20 people to a house and come here purely to work for 3 or 4 years, save all their money and take it back home. They do not have to "live" here as ordinary citizens do and they do not pay the same each month as your average wage earner... this is why they can work for minimum wage.

Its a problem that is all too obvious in towns such as Rochdale... groups of 10-20 men per terraced house all sleeping on the floor and working in shifts, they cook as a commune ( big pots of rice and curry ) and often work cash in hand as pay no taxes. until these kind of workers vanish of COURSE its going to be hard for anyone who lives here normally to compete. Its impossible to live, rent and work for minimum wage if you live on your own.

Just using the blanket excuse of "they will do the job that others wont" is simplifying the matter. If they HAD to live and rent and pay taxes as a normal citizen they too would be unable to do it on the so called minimum wage!

Just think logically for a moment. Your usual minimum wage job will pay about 10k a year after taxes... usually less if no overtime. So you are talking about 800ish a month take home pay.

After rent and council tax and basic gas/electric/water/and other non optional bills you are maybe left with 200quid for all your food, transport clothing and other things such as toiletries and essentials. That's 50quid a week for working 8 hours a day all year..... the same as most get on benefits!... and we wonder why so many choose not to work. And this is of course assuming you are single with no kids.. add kids and its impossible to make ends meet. Childcare alone would cost nearly all your take home pay.

I don't see why someone on benefits who gets their rent paid and council tax mostly paid cant still be helped while also working... it would make them want to work, boost the economy and also get many off their backsides if it was worth doing, but no.. get a job and instantly all help goes and the incentive vanishes.
 
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Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind - Albert Einstein

UKIP have disgusting policies on social issues, equal rights, the disabled & the poor - the party would send the UK back 100 years in social progress & further enrich the top earners in the UK at the expense of everyone else.

To attempt get into power they will tap into the vast resource of stupidity, fear, xenophobia & ignorance which the UK has in abundance.

I hear you and agree on the poor, disabled, ukip have a way to go if they want to be taken seriously but a large number of people have voted and made it clear they are a little tired of immigrants poring into our country. Something has to be done.

Talking of disgusting policies on the disabled and poor, our current Government hasn't exactly got a clean bill of health there now have they? In fact it's appalling, disabled, mentally ill and terminally ill people being forced to undergo for ever stricter assessments, being found fit for work and some dying shortly after, unemployed being forced to work 30+hours a week for nothing or lose benefit..... but that's another thread.

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18487743&page=36
 
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How can you square what you say here:

I will add that many migrant workers can do low paid jobs purely because they live in shared houses often 20 people to a house and come here purely to work for 3 or 4 years, save all their money and take it back home. They do not have to "live" here as ordinary citizens do and they do not pay the same each month as your average wage earner... this is why they can work for minimum wage.

With that you say here?
After rent and council tax and basic gas/electric/water/and other non optional bills you are maybe left with 200quid for all your food, transport clothing and other things such as toiletries and essentials. That's 50quid a week for working 8 hours a day all year..... the same as most get on benefits!... and we wonder why so many choose not to work. And this is of course assuming you are single with no kids.. add kids and its impossible to make ends meet. Childcare alone would cost nearly all your take home pay.

On the one hand you're saying it's perfectly possible to live on minimum wage (albeit in a shared house) and send ALL your money home, but on the other say it's IMPOSSIBLE to live while paying for all the stuff in England that is so expensive?!

Do you really think every single immigrant in this country lives with 20 other people and shares all their meals? Really? Ultimately native Britons should be sharing. Why the hell should everyone be able to have their own house and live independently on minimum wage? I know I couldn't afford to live as I do without my partner also working as she does. According to others in this thread Britain is "full" so we all better start shacking up with eachother asap!

Immigrants cannot win. Either they come here and work hard (paying taxes all the while by the way, or are you going to add in they all avoid tax and work illegally too) or they're all here to scrounge benefits and do nothing of any use!
 
There is a keen difference between letting absolutely anyone into the country, and letting in skilled workers like Australia / US / Canada do. It is not racist to understand the difference. Race isn't even an issue. If you're uneducated, go away. We have enough unemployed people (worklessness is a separate issue).

Letting people come into the country who are instantly marginalised and open to exploitation (no works and no ability to claim benefits? Better start working for below minimum wage for some dodgy geezer!) is going to lead to undesirable outcomes for everyone involved. I do not support Conservative, Labour and Liberal Democrat policy that actively supports the marginalisation of people looking for a better life for themselves. That is wrong.
 
@ lil old me, Quote Ultimately native Britons should be sharing. Why the hell should everyone be able to have their own house and live independently on minimum wage?

No they shouldn't, this is England, why the hell should they be sharing their home with countless other people? you see this is why there is conflict, we will not adopt your backward lifestyle, a lifestyle you fight so hard to get away from.
 
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I hear you and agree on the poor, disabled, ukip have a way to go if they want to be taken seriously but a large number of people have voted and made it clear they are a little tired of immigrants poring into our country. Something has to be done.

Talking of disgusting policies on the disabled and poor, our current Government hasn't exactly got a clean bill of health there now have they? In fact it's appalling, disabled, mentally ill and terminally ill people being forced to undergo for ever stricter assessments, being found fit for work and some dying shortly after, unemployed being forced to work 30+hours a week for nothing or lose benefit..... but that's another thread.

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18487743&page=36

Why is popular sentiment ok to use when referring to immigration but not to benefits?
 
The whole of British politics needs an overhaul. It's impossible to make an informed decision on who to vote for when none of the parties are held accountable for their actions or their broken promises.

I'm fed up with being told what I want to hear, with absolutely no guarantee that anything of the sort will be done if said party comes to power.

If there was a "dissolve parliament completely" box on the ballot paper i'd tick it.
 
Well, two different subjects completely, go have a pint Dolph. :D

Not really, they all relate to how we treat people. if argumentum ad populum is an acceptable approach for one, then it must be acceptable for the other, otherwise you show no consistency.

I personally prefer rights to be universal and laws to be evidence based, but if you accept fallacy as a valid process, and least be consistent
 
@ lil old me, Quote Ultimately native Britons should be sharing. Why the hell should everyone be able to have their own house and live independently on minimum wage?

No they shouldn't, this is England, why the hell should they be sharing their home with countless other people? you see this is why there is conflict, we will not adopt your backward lifestyle, a lifestyle you fight so hard to get away from.

Yes this is England. The real world. Low wages = lower standard of living. Just because we have had it so good for the last few decades does not mean it is a God given right. It was common in Victorian times for workers to live in extremely cramped conditions, yes we have moved on from there but it is not so long ago. Ultimately the capitalist system moves towards the lowest common denominator. As a libertarian party UKIP should theoretically embrace the market solution to everything with government having very little involvement. In this case those who pool their labour and make themselves cheapest are going to be better off. It is merely a better way of competing. If you can't be bothered to put up with living in as poor conditions as they supposedly are (I still refute that sharing to that level is common in anyway) then you will be priced out of the market.

In any case my original point wasn't really about sharing with 20 people, as I say I sincerely doubt this is common. It was more that atreus was implying that no one should have to share a house with anyone else and should just be able to live by themselves. This is clearly not possible or sustainable.
 
Not really, they all relate to how we treat people. if argumentum ad populum is an acceptable approach for one, then it must be acceptable for the other, otherwise you show no consistency.

I personally prefer rights to be universal and laws to be evidence based, but if you accept fallacy as a valid process, and least be consistent

Yes, really, immigrants need to understand if they choose to live here then they must accept our way of life, otherwise conflict is inevitable, the majority are now questioning our immigration polices and I agree, the majority are questioning the welfare system and I disagree, how's that for consistency?
 
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Yes this is England. The real world. Low wages = lower standard of living. Just because we have had it so good for the last few decades does not mean it is a God given right. It was common in Victorian times for workers to live in extremely cramped conditions, yes we have moved on from there but it is not so long ago. Ultimately the capitalist system moves towards the lowest common denominator. As a libertarian party UKIP should theoretically embrace the market solution to everything with government having very little involvement. In this case those who pool their labour and make themselves cheapest are going to be better off. It is merely a better way of competing. If you can't be bothered to put up with living in as poor conditions as they supposedly are (I still refute that sharing to that level is common in anyway) then you will be priced out of the market.

In any case my original point wasn't really about sharing with 20 people, as I say I sincerely doubt this is common. It was more that atreus was implying that no one should have to share a house with anyone else and should just be able to live by themselves. This is clearly not possible or sustainable.

Nor is constant flow of immigrants.
 
Britain in the past also existed at a time when we had been the first to industrialise and the rest of the world was a basket case. Right now India and China are overtaking us and the BRIC countries aren't far behind. Britain and the individual countries in Europe just cannot stand alone.

You know that the India and China are 2 of the BRIC countries... right? (Brazil, Russia, India, China)



As an aside to that point, I think the real reason people have voted UKIP is they are bloody fed up.

Labour took the country to the dogs, and the Conservatives are giving us some nasty tasting medicine to try and clean things up. The problem is, we nee decades to recover from this mess. The Lib Dems look scared/incompetant at best, and actually, some of UKIP's policy ideas on the surface seem sensible - however I have not spent the time to see if they are affordable.

If you watched Question Time earlier in the week I'll risk saying that David Starkey was talking a lot of sense about all this. We need to sort our own country out as a priority, and that is going to result in us dealing with some seriously difficult decisions. Some services will simply have to go, and maybe they can come back in a non bloated way once this mess is sorted out.

Edit - Looking through UKIP's pages, one thing I do like is points based migration to come here, much like other major countries like Canada, New Zealand and Australia. Certainly ensures that the highest or even required quality come to settle here and minimised the chance of needing state support. Whatever skills we need at that time that we have a shortage of get preferential points treatment.

Another thing I like is their stance on deportation. If you are to be deported for a serious reason (Abu Qatada anyone?) or even following a prison sentance for comitting a serious crime (like the fellow who killed a school girl when driving - wasn't that without insurance etc?) then I think you do go back, no matter what 'rights' you have under the human rights act. Play by the rules or see you later. I don't think many would disagree with those options.

Note - I did not vote for UKIP.
 
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Yes this is England. The real world. Low wages = lower standard of living. Just because we have had it so good for the last few decades does not mean it is a God given right. It was common in Victorian times for workers to live in extremely cramped conditions, yes we have moved on from there but it is not so long ago. Ultimately the capitalist system moves towards the lowest common denominator. As a libertarian party UKIP should theoretically embrace the market solution to everything with government having very little involvement. In this case those who pool their labour and make themselves cheapest are going to be better off. It is merely a better way of competing. If you can't be bothered to put up with living in as poor conditions as they supposedly are (I still refute that sharing to that level is common in anyway) then you will be priced out of the market.

In any case my original point wasn't really about sharing with 20 people, as I say I sincerely doubt this is common. It was more that atreus was implying that no one should have to share a house with anyone else and should just be able to live by themselves. This is clearly not possible or sustainable.

Yet the system will punish you for living in a shared house! they assume you are co habiting and therefore share your money, unless you live in a room in a shared house in which case you are to pay vastly inflated rent, council tax etc!. And what if you cannot find a partner, you are therefore to be homeless?

Ps in my home town and places like Rochdale yes it IS very common and a real reason why the locals are branded as racist and anti immigration. Its a real problem in some towns and not in others... and the people who live in places where there is no problem are the first ones to stand on a soapbox and declare that anyone who dares bring the subject up is a racist and a bigot.

The simple fact is that there are far too many immigrants and more on the way.... it is a FACT and no amount of head in sand thinking will stop the problem unless we actively stop more coming here.

IF the economy was booming and loads of jobs id say no problem the more the merrier, the current state of affairs means jobs for citizens first IMHO
 
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You know that the India and China are 2 of the BRIC countries... right? (Brazil, Russia, India, China)



As an aside to that point, I think the real reason people have voted UKIP is they are bloody fed up.

Labour took the country to the dogs, and the Conservatives are giving us some nasty tasting medicine to try and clean things up. The problem is, we nee decades to recover from this mess. The Lib Dems look scared/incompetant at best, and actually, some of UKIP's policy ideas on the surface seem sensible - however I have not spent the time to see if they are affordable.

If you watched Question Time earlier in the week I'll risk saying that David Starkey was talking a lot of sense about all this. We need to sort our own country out as a priority, and that is going to result in us dealing with some seriously difficult decisions. Some services will simply have to go, and maybe they can come back in a non bloated way once this mess is sorted out.

Starkey lost it a little towards the end, but it was an excellent question time. Anyone who is wondering why people vote UKIP should watch it.
 
You know that the India and China are 2 of the BRIC countries... right? (Brazil, Russia, India, China)



As an aside to that point, I think the real reason people have voted UKIP is they are bloody fed up.

Labour took the country to the dogs, and the Conservatives are giving us some nasty tasting medicine to try and clean things up. The problem is, we nee decades to recover from this mess. The Lib Dems look scared/incompetant at best, and actually, some of UKIP's policy ideas on the surface seem sensible - however I have not spent the time to see if they are affordable.

If you watched Question Time earlier in the week I'll risk saying that David Starkey was talking a lot of sense about all this. We need to sort our own country out as a priority, and that is going to result in us dealing with some seriously difficult decisions. Some services will simply have to go, and maybe they can come back in a non bloated way once this mess is sorted out.

Edit - Looking through UKIP's pages, one thing I do like is points based migration to come here, much like other major countries like Canada, New Zealand and Australia. Certainly ensures that the highest or even required quality come to settle here and minimised the chance of needing state support. Whatever skills we need at that time that we have a shortage of get preferential points treatment.

Another thing I like is their stance on deportation. If you are to be deported for a serious reason (Abu Qatada anyone?) or even following a prison sentance for comitting a serious crime (like the fellow who killed a school girl when driving - wasn't that without insurance etc?) then I think you do go back, no matter what 'rights' you have under the human rights act. Play by the rules or see you later. I don't think many would disagree with those options.

Note - I did not vote for UKIP.

Very well said sir, love your deportation statement.;)
 
Well people either need to back behind the Tories or commit to UKIP or looney Labour Party are just gonna do nothing and slip in the back door at the next GA.
 
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Well people either need to back behind the Tories or commit to UKIP or looney Labour Party are just gonna do nothing and slip in the back door at h next GA.

I'll be doing neither of your suggestions, unless UKIP U turn on welfare policies, as for backing Tories, well, you have more chance of a fortnights holiday on Mars.
 
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