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Why is it a step backwards? Surely its a step to the side and up some stairs? At least better than labour... stepping off the cliff.
Does UKIP have any longevity in politics?
- Thread starter dirtychinchilla
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Why is it a step backwards? Surely its a step to the side and up some stairs? At least better than labour... stepping off the cliff.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22429790
These are the reasons I've been voting UKIP since I was eligible to vote.
I want out the EU, I'm a climate sceptic, and think a flat tax would be a good thing for the country. I disagree with all their other policies though, particularly on immigration. After the referendum is held, I doubt I'll be voting for them again.
These are the reasons I've been voting UKIP since I was eligible to vote.
I want out the EU, I'm a climate sceptic, and think a flat tax would be a good thing for the country. I disagree with all their other policies though, particularly on immigration. After the referendum is held, I doubt I'll be voting for them again.
Interestingly, according to a YouGov poll of approximately 1800 UKIP voters only 8% think that UKIP would run the country well.
Unsurprisingly the majority of their voters have issues with immigration and the EU. So it's probable they will be attracted back to other parties once they respond with harder immigration measures and a possible referendum on membership of the European Union.
For those that vote UKIP because they appear to have more conviction will do well to remember they were quick to exploit the populist opposition to same-sex marriage despite their alleged libertarian principles. A few more examples of this kind of opportunism should soon break any illusion that this lot are much different.
I expect UKIP will remain 'hot' up until the next GE. Then the hype will begin to trail off when the bandwagon jumping UKIP voters, not understanding FPTP, learn there is zero chance of Farage becoming PM after one election.
No doubt they'll also encounter problems on a couple of areas too. Activists from various classes will realise that their shared ethnocentrism isn't cohesive enough to keep them all together in the end. Additionally, now the spotlight is on them they will be forced to sensibly justify some of their policies which some activists probably don't even support/understand over and above EU and immigration. Considering how loony some of them are (the policies, combined with the candidates themselves) this will not go well.
Unsurprisingly the majority of their voters have issues with immigration and the EU. So it's probable they will be attracted back to other parties once they respond with harder immigration measures and a possible referendum on membership of the European Union.
For those that vote UKIP because they appear to have more conviction will do well to remember they were quick to exploit the populist opposition to same-sex marriage despite their alleged libertarian principles. A few more examples of this kind of opportunism should soon break any illusion that this lot are much different.
I expect UKIP will remain 'hot' up until the next GE. Then the hype will begin to trail off when the bandwagon jumping UKIP voters, not understanding FPTP, learn there is zero chance of Farage becoming PM after one election.
No doubt they'll also encounter problems on a couple of areas too. Activists from various classes will realise that their shared ethnocentrism isn't cohesive enough to keep them all together in the end. Additionally, now the spotlight is on them they will be forced to sensibly justify some of their policies which some activists probably don't even support/understand over and above EU and immigration. Considering how loony some of them are (the policies, combined with the candidates themselves) this will not go well.
so anyone who votes for ukip is an idiot or a racist homophobe.....
its kind of funny that such statements say so much more about the people saying them as opposed to the intended targets.
Also to say ukip are pro intervention is outright LIE (oh sorry no offence not aimed at you lol)
Farage openly said in eu parliament (and I dont remember any other party leader saying this) that fighting islam extremism in battle is not something you can succeed in!! He describes afghan war as a decade of unwinnable un-ending misery. When he spoke at a uni he said we shouldn't have to follow US into war, using Vietnam as an example that out special relationship also means we can say no.
He was recently at sovereign man conference where he sat and made speeches with people like ron paul (a well known us presidential candidate that was extremely anti-war).
please before making claims you at least owe it to yourself to actually do at least a bit of research on the subject.
who knows maybe its zero percent that would think they would be good in government.
interestingly yougov was founded by Stephan Shakespeare, who also happened to co-found conservativehome.blogs.com a tory political/blog site. What a coincidence
You were forefront in my mind when describing that caricature, yes
Only if we can have the debate not disrupted by the "herp derp - we are being overrun by workless, uneducated numpties" as well
Since the facts show a tiny % of eastern Europeans are on unemployment benefits and on average, they are of a higher level of education than the indigenous youth, but hey, facts are so boring in a good emotive debate.
You were forefront in my mind when describing that caricature, yes
Well if the shoe fits!
Soldato
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We had an empire. Most of our goods/trade ended up in Aus/NZ/South Africa/anywhere else we could foist our goods. When it died so did the trade.
The majority of our trade is now with Europe. Thats a fact. Thats why we joined the EEC/Common Market as it was, in the first place. To facilitate free trade within our largest trading partner(s).
I don't see that at all. They're so obsessed with Europe as to be blind to everything else - most of our immigration comes not from Europe but from further afield.
In short, they're idiots. I have no love for the left either and it's social engineering i.e. allowing mass immigration to prove a political point i.e. they're equally obsessed with racism and by flooding the country with non-whites are trying to force integration as a political weapon.
They're as short sighted as each other.
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Soldato
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Not by a lot....
https://www.uktradeinfo.com/Pages/Home.aspx
And with China & India booming it won't be long before we export and import more from outside the EU than from ithin.
And after you take away the cost from being in the EU in the first place, export to outside EU probably ends up ontop.
But people seem to love the EU on this forum
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Only if we can have the debate not disrupted by the "herp derp - we are being overrun by workless, uneducated numpties" as well
Since the facts show a tiny % of eastern Europeans are on unemployment benefits and on average, they are of a higher level of education than the indigenous youth, but hey, facts are so boring in a good emotive debate.
I doubt most people have a problem with Eastern Europeans....my experience of them has been exceptionally positive. They work hard, they integrate well and as you said they are usually very well qualified.
The problem is from further afield and from segments with absolutely no interest in integrating. Unfortunately even trying to talk about such issues leads you to be branded socially stimagtising names....
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Any party that'll stop immigration from anywhere & is gonna get us out of the eu, cannot be all that bad, after all at the moment we let any jack man & his dog in & we are the eu.
Look at the mess we are in.
UK out & No to immigration.
Look at the mess we are in.
UK out & No to immigration.
Soldato
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Self fulfilling prophecy.
Eastern Europeans are prepared to work longer hours for less money so what do you think would happen? Obviously they find it easier to find work, thus displacing the native worker who now can't find work. So there's you stat, Eastern Europeans are more employed than native workers.
You then use that symptom to try and prove their is no problem.
But even so, it still doesn't mean anything. If you believe that Eastern European workers are 'better' than native ones, that isn't an argument for unfettered immigration. If there is a problem with the British workforce, then you fix that problem, not plug the hole with immigrants then stick the displaced workers on benefits (and THEN blame them for not being employed like the immigrant who's just taken their job).
The reason why I imply that people who so vehemently support UKIP as small minded & racist is that the kind of mind which views our current nation & concludes that immigration is the cause of all of our problems (or our biggest concern) is detached from reality.
So yes, some people may not be overtly racist or be voting for UKIP as a protest vote due to disagreeing with our immigration policy but the fact remains immigration isn't the biggest problem we face.
Who do you think will be propping up our unsustainable pension fund (Which all the political parties are scared of touching due to how politically active they are).
Our problems are deeper than simply blaming Johnny come lately for all our woes, we live in a global society - isolationist nationalism is primitive & frankly for idiots who refuse to accept the face of the world is changing.
Why people fear so much racial & cultural integration (which has it's problems of course, not all cultures mix easily) - but it's something that has & will happen - the question is how we manage it.
If we want people to adopt our key cultural values (on objective matters regarding suffering) & integrate into society then maybe we should be a little more open & end this pathetic immigrant bashing which is rife in our low brow culture & media.
At the end of a day a human being is a human being, I fail to see the significance as to the location at the time of birth - give me 10 decent foreigners over 10 scum-bag domestics any day of the week.
Besides, the true pro capitalists should be favour of immigration - it's a core part of a "true free market", UKIP being so called 'libertarians' being against immigration is a contradiction - that's protectionism.
They are as ideologically flawed the the US tea party.
IE, claim to be against authoritarianism & pro-personal liberty, but against gay marriage , against free border movement, against right to choice - when people talk about being a "libertarian" they mean enforcing a social rule-set which conforms to personal bias & a protectionist economic rule-set (which claiming to be in favour of the free market).
When they talk about freedom, they simple mean the freedom to force others to act in a way they approve of.
It's a crock.
Personally, I'm socially liberal & economically authoritarian (government intervention) - mostly because that the evidence lends towards liberal economic policy resulting in the same problems as an authoritarian government (too much power residing in one place, but instead of sitting with an elected government sitting with an unelected corporation) but with none of the benefits (no wealth redistribution & a lack of public services) - with at least governments taking into account the negative externalities a corporation is unable to (due to the nature of the beast) along with long term sustainability & systemic risk (the other two factors the business world don't take into account).
For an example of this compare the average EU nation to the US & the problems it results in.
So yes, some people may not be overtly racist or be voting for UKIP as a protest vote due to disagreeing with our immigration policy but the fact remains immigration isn't the biggest problem we face.
Who do you think will be propping up our unsustainable pension fund (Which all the political parties are scared of touching due to how politically active they are).
Our problems are deeper than simply blaming Johnny come lately for all our woes, we live in a global society - isolationist nationalism is primitive & frankly for idiots who refuse to accept the face of the world is changing.
Why people fear so much racial & cultural integration (which has it's problems of course, not all cultures mix easily) - but it's something that has & will happen - the question is how we manage it.
If we want people to adopt our key cultural values (on objective matters regarding suffering) & integrate into society then maybe we should be a little more open & end this pathetic immigrant bashing which is rife in our low brow culture & media.
At the end of a day a human being is a human being, I fail to see the significance as to the location at the time of birth - give me 10 decent foreigners over 10 scum-bag domestics any day of the week.
Besides, the true pro capitalists should be favour of immigration - it's a core part of a "true free market", UKIP being so called 'libertarians' being against immigration is a contradiction - that's protectionism.
They are as ideologically flawed the the US tea party.
IE, claim to be against authoritarianism & pro-personal liberty, but against gay marriage , against free border movement, against right to choice - when people talk about being a "libertarian" they mean enforcing a social rule-set which conforms to personal bias & a protectionist economic rule-set (which claiming to be in favour of the free market).
When they talk about freedom, they simple mean the freedom to force others to act in a way they approve of.
It's a crock.
Personally, I'm socially liberal & economically authoritarian (government intervention) - mostly because that the evidence lends towards liberal economic policy resulting in the same problems as an authoritarian government (too much power residing in one place, but instead of sitting with an elected government sitting with an unelected corporation) but with none of the benefits (no wealth redistribution & a lack of public services) - with at least governments taking into account the negative externalities a corporation is unable to (due to the nature of the beast) along with long term sustainability & systemic risk (the other two factors the business world don't take into account).
For an example of this compare the average EU nation to the US & the problems it results in.
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They have a surge of popularity due to the economic and job crisis at the moment. People want someone to blame and it unfortunately tends to be immigrants that become the focus of their misdirected anger.
Up here in my local area near Glasgow you always know when unemployment is high as you get a larger contingent of sectarian violence, orange walks and republican walks. Instead of focusing their anger on Catholics/protestants like up here, in England it goes towards the immigrants as they want someone to blame.
I’m just glad that we don’t get the same type of support for right wing parties up here.
Up here in my local area near Glasgow you always know when unemployment is high as you get a larger contingent of sectarian violence, orange walks and republican walks. Instead of focusing their anger on Catholics/protestants like up here, in England it goes towards the immigrants as they want someone to blame.
I’m just glad that we don’t get the same type of support for right wing parties up here.
Soldato
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No the reason you shout racism is because it's an easy way to shut down the debate.
I've never heard anyone claim that immigrants are the cause of all our problems, I've only ever heard jobs, housing shortages and benefits been mentioned. I've never heard anyone blame them for the war in Iraq, the global economic crisis, the Jimmy Savile scandal etc. So to claim that UKIP and/or their supporters are blaming all our problems on immigrants is a straw man.
This entire argument is brilliantly rebuffed here (in the Guardian of all places). It touches on everything you said about left wingers being scared of the notion that charity starts at home and that people are people etc....
Why the Left Are Wrong On Immigration
I say racist because every single person I know who voted them harbours at least subtle racist attitudes.
Listen to the speeches from the members of UKIP, read the information they publicise.
I don't need to brand them as racist, they do a great job of that themselves.
Maybe you need to listen a little harder.
Not really (read the entire article just).
It's one view, one which I didn't see any evidence for & it makes a massive (huge) amount of assumptions about the individuals other views.
I agree with some of the points (about the deficit in skilled labour in the developing world) but it makes the assumption that if I had my own way the current situation would be the same regarding how the developed world interacts with the developing - ie, implying that people who think we shouldn't focus so much on immigration don't hold other views on different inter-linked subjects.
The entire article you linked is a massive straw-man - it tell's the reader exactly what "people of the left" think about an array of subjects then argues against those (with no evidence backing it up), to which people with a pre-existing opposing bias (not pointing fingers here) lap it up uncritically.
It also incorrectly implies that assistance for foreign people has to come at the expense of the indigenous population (which is also incorrect) - it also ignores the huge element of economic stratification the people of the UK suffer at the hands of businesses & corporations.
Voting for UKIP with the intention of making things better for the average UK worker is simply idiotic, as halting immigration while slashing public services, regressing on social issues (social issues such as gay rights etc) then giving more power to corporations will achieve exactly the opposite.
If anything it will further enfranchise the wealthy while using the public's misplaced anger at immigration as a tool to achieve it - I agree conversations need to be had regarding integration (or lack of), job availability & housing - but articles like that are hardly conducive to it (if anything it promotes more of the already tiresome attitudes of simply blaming foreigners for our nations issues).
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Soldato
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That is a subjective opinion of yours, I'm sure they would disagree with that tag.
Show me then. All I've seen is that they are anti-EU, that doesn't equate to being racist.
In fact it could be argued that supporters of the EU immigration policy are the racist ones. Why? UKIP’s immigration policy would apply to everyone, whereas currently the ‘free movement’ benefit is only available to mainly white Europeans. So in reality the EU immigration policy advocates are supporting a system that favours whites and gives them more rights than Africans or Asians.
So, why should a white Pole have more right to come here than a black Somali Elmarko? You support the status quo after all.
As someone who is meant to be in favour of evidence based decision making it is amusing that you would use anecdote as the plural of data.
