VVTL-i Owners

TehBluebear · 31 May 2013 at 08:42

Zuban, with regards to the Compressor, it doesn't help when the super duper Eibach suspension that came with them breaks, which it was very fond of doing. And that it was around £600 PER CORNER to get replacements from Toyota! There's none left in stock now, so a lot of people have gone for BC Coilovers, including my dad, especially when it's around £600 fully fitted

Because it was an edition that was the responsibility of TTE/TMG, and only sold through Toyota, I believe Toyota themselves are not obliged to forever keep parts in stock, so once the original run of parts are gone, that's it. As a result of this, they've never stocked things like gaskets for the supercharger and so on, and supercharger oil. One member of Corolla Club UK managed to hunt down the oil needed and bought a big drum of the stuff to supply to the guys on there, it only needs a splash to keep the 'charger lubed. Any Compressor specific parts are quite a pain to get hold of by all accounts (partly because a lot of people at Toyota dealerships don't seem to know about them!)

NathWraith · 31 May 2013 at 09:05

TehBluebear said:
We're all in the woodwork, waiting for the brief, fleeting instances when it's 'cool' and socically acceptable on OcUK forums to own a Toyota.

hey, it's always been cool :cool:

Relentless81 · 31 May 2013 at 09:08

I made them cool

Zuban · 31 May 2013 at 09:34

TehBluebear said:
Zuban, with regards to the Compressor, it doesn't help when the super duper Eibach suspension that came with them breaks, which it was very fond of doing. And that it was around £600 PER CORNER to get replacements from Toyota! There's none left in stock now, so a lot of people have gone for BC Coilovers, including my dad, especially when it's around £600 fully fitted

Because it was an edition that was the responsibility of TTE/TMG, and only sold through Toyota, I believe Toyota themselves are not obliged to forever keep parts in stock, so once the original run of parts are gone, that's it. As a result of this, they've never stocked things like gaskets for the supercharger and so on, and supercharger oil. One member of Corolla Club UK managed to hunt down the oil needed and bought a big drum of the stuff to supply to the guys on there, it only needs a splash to keep the 'charger lubed. Any Compressor specific parts are quite a pain to get hold of by all accounts (partly because a lot of people at Toyota dealerships don't seem to know about them!)

interesting stuff!, didnt know any of that, how are the BC coilovers? i am planning a set for the st205 at some point.

TehBluebear · 31 May 2013 at 09:54

He loves his, but they've been knocking a few times now. Possibly down to Mum's driving

and/or the rubbish condition of Burnley's roads.

My MeisterR Zeta S coilovers on my Starlet GT have been fine though, a little harsher in comparison but that's probably due to the car being so light in the first place. I think MeisterR's are developed with UK roads more in mind, but a lot of it is what the owner prefers i guess. I think they're starting to do them for the E12 Corolla as well, as Dad has been looking into it.

Zuban · 31 May 2013 at 10:06

TehBluebear said:
He loves his, but they've been knocking a few times now. Possibly down to Mum's driving and/or the rubbish condition of Burnley's roads.

My MeisterR Zeta S coilovers on my Starlet GT have been fine though, a little harsher in comparison but that's probably due to the car being so light in the first place. I think MeisterR's are developed with UK roads more in mind, but a lot of it is what the owner prefers i guess. I think they're starting to do them for the E12 Corolla as well, as Dad has been looking into it.

I would take meisterR over BC myself because they have an active rep on the celica club, but i dont think they do them for the st205

, the BC's seem ok by all accounts though although i do worry about the longetivity of them. I've been spoiled by having pretty good kits before, I had KW variant 2's on my corolla and they were really brilliant there not too much more expensive than the bc's at about 800, and i really would reccomend them, very high quality, they dont come with topmounts though but i'd still pick them over BC's and other budget brands etc. Had TRD coilovers on my ss3 celica which had epic amounts of grip, and they took huge amounts of punishment, getting decent coilovers for the st205 at a good price is a bit like trying to find the golden fleece, and i'm struggling to find inserts that would fit in the front shocks or i'd just make my own.

BD10NNF · 2 Jun 2013 at 11:04

So I've had a little drive yesterday as you do and whoever said that lift isn't as good as vTec must be a little strange. To me it feels just as good if not better. Just a little worried that I'm going to have to have deep pockets to keep fueling the car.

LukeTW · 3 Jun 2013 at 19:38

BD10NNF said:
So I've had a little drive yesterday as you do and whoever said that lift isn't as good as vTec must be a little strange. To me it feels just as good if not better. Just a little worried that I'm going to have to have deep pockets to keep fueling the car.

Lift is very addictive.. Its hard to keep off it

Zuban · 4 Jun 2013 at 10:23

BD10NNF said:
So I've had a little drive yesterday as you do and whoever said that lift isn't as good as vTec must be a little strange. To me it feels just as good if not better. Just a little worried that I'm going to have to have deep pockets to keep fueling the car.

I think vtecs are better in that they dont tend to have the dip in torque just before the high lift cam comes in, I always found that a bit frustrating about the 2zz-ge. It could feel like at times the power was dropping then all of a sudden lift came in and there was a massive jump in power, vtecs tend to build up in a much smoother fashion and if you look at the dyno charts of the two engines its clear to see the drop on the 2zz.

BD10NNF · 4 Jun 2013 at 11:10

Zuban said:
I think vtecs are better in that they dont tend to have the dip in torque just before the high lift cam comes in, I always found that a bit frustrating about the 2zz-ge. It could feel like at times the power was dropping then all of a sudden lift came in and there was a massive jump in power, vtecs tend to build up in a much smoother fashion and if you look at the dyno charts of the two engines its clear to see the drop on the 2zz.

To be honest I haven't noticed the drop as I've been playing with the cross over to lift. I just can't believe that so many people slate vvtl-i without even taking it for a proper drive.

Simon · 4 Jun 2013 at 11:20

Baseline B18 (170hp version) vs a vvtl-i:

In our dyno cell testing, the 2ZZ-GE (blue) engine is clearly the winner for producing peak power with a max output of 160.1 hp and 120.0 lb-ft of torque. However, the B18C (red) is the undisputed winner for usable power. The B18C made more usable power below 6400 rpm

Read more: http://www.turbomagazine.com/featur...c_vs_toyota_vvtli/photo_11.html#ixzz2VF2iUe9p

turp_0106_08_z+honda_vtec_vs_toyota_vvtli+dyno_comparison.jpg

Simon · 4 Jun 2013 at 11:23

I randomly went off an looked for anymore comparison charts out of my own interest.

This if from a Lotus forum and is the respective engines in a Lotus so not sure what differences there are to exhaust or inlets, but the shape of the curve tell a story. K20 (Civic Type R) vs a 2zz in the CTS (End up in similar cars really)

BD10NNF · 4 Jun 2013 at 11:27

Interesting graphs there. I will have to read a little more about this.

NathanE · 4 Jun 2013 at 11:30

The 2ZZ-GE curves can be flattened with a custom tune. Especially if you fit a TRD induction and/or custom manifold/cat/silencer.

Simon · 4 Jun 2013 at 11:34

NathanE said:
The 2ZZ-GE curves can be flattened with a custom tune. Especially if you fit a TRD induction and/or custom manifold/cat/silencer.

Nice, makes a big difference to the feel of the car. Got any post tune graphs?

Lowering the VTEC on an F20C can gain 30hp at 6000rpm so you get much more mid-range, however the delivery of power is deceiving so that the butt dyno doesn't notice it.

I think Toyota have deliberately set the engine up to really emphasis the kick, great for the butt dyno but not ideal for getting down the road as quick as possible.

Both the 2zz and VTECs are great engines though!

NathanE · 4 Jun 2013 at 11:41

Simon said:
Nice, makes a big difference to the feel of the car. Got any post tune graphs?

Lowering the VTEC on an F20C can gain 30hp at 6000rpm so you get much more mid-range, however the delivery of power is deceiving so that the butt dyno doesn't notice it.

I think Toyota have deliberately set the engine up to really emphasis the kick, great for the butt dyno but not ideal for getting down the road as quick as possible.

Both the 2zz and VTECs are great engines though!

http://www.essexautosport.com/content/download/pdf/Tsukuba-Track_vs_2ZZ-GE.pdf

They also do a supercharging upgrade which looks like this:

http://www.essexautosport.com/content/download/pdf/Tsukuba-Sport_vs_2ZZ-GE.pdf

Toyota set the engine up (quite lazily) for emissions i.e. VED bands. The kick was a sort of unintended side affect. Lotus pretty much copied the Toyota tune as they were chasing lower VED bands too. Basically, VED bands suck!

Pug · 4 Jun 2013 at 11:43

the thing with the 2ZZ (and the gearbox that it was coupled with in the Cleica at least) is that once you are in "lift" you can stay there, as the ratios drop you right in at the beginning again, so there is no lag to get back into it (assuming you change at 8.2k, just prior to red line, or whatever it was).

Which meant you actually had 2 cars, depending on how hard you drove it.

regarding the seat dyno - i'd agree, it was emphasised, but in a way that meant you got a thrill at a much lower speed than a prison ban!

Finally, there was lots of discussion oer which was quicker - an Impreza (standard as opposed to STI etc) and a TSport Celica. Once off and running they were deemed to be almost equivalent, despite the extra power in the Impreza (transmission loss), so in many ways were quicker than expected. I know i read something about how Lotus altered the map to make the engine fall out of lift later (so on gear change or lift off) the theory being it could use the extra power presented by lift again more quickly than the standard 2ZZ.

Compared to the 140BHP Celica VVT-i, they performed similarly until lift, at which point there was no contest. For me though the chassis and suspension were even more impressive, helped in no small part by the driving position as well.

NathanE · 4 Jun 2013 at 11:50

Pug said:
I know i read something about how Lotus altered the map to make the engine fall out of lift later (so on gear change or lift off) the theory being it could use the extra power presented by lift again more quickly than the standard 2ZZ.

That was the Lotus Motorsport tune which wasn't standard. It costs £400 or so. It also has a lower 5700rpm cam change point. Conveniently, the "Top Gear Apache Exige" used the Motorsport tune.

Zuban · 4 Jun 2013 at 11:58

NathanE said:
http://www.essexautosport.com/content/download/pdf/Tsukuba-Track_vs_2ZZ-GE.pdf

They also do a supercharging upgrade which looks like this:

http://www.essexautosport.com/content/download/pdf/Tsukuba-Sport_vs_2ZZ-GE.pdf

Toyota set the engine up (quite lazily) for emissions i.e. VED bands. The kick was a sort of unintended side affect. Lotus pretty much copied the Toyota tune as they were chasing lower VED bands too. Basically, VED bands suck!

wow thats really quite a difference between those maps! paricularly around the changeover point the gains are huge, 38bhp more at 6500rpm! A map like that would make such a big difference in the likes of the celica or corolla.

BD10NNF · 3 Jul 2013 at 09:33

Saw the new GT86 in the flesh and close up. All I can say is that its stunning. If I had enough money I would have one without a doubt.

Just a quick question really. Few friends are wanting to go to Santa Pod to do some runs. They want us all to take our own cars. Just wondering where the best place on the rev range is to get a good start without putting much wheel spin and get up to speed sharpish?