Relevance of new Time Capsule etc.

Kol said:
Hang on, what part of it being a router doesn't work out of the box? When I had fibre installed I told this guy not to bother with the router. I unpacked my sealed TC, plug the wire from the vdsl modem into the correct port, plugged it in, ran the airport utility which a child could handle and I was up and running. Very easy.

Edit, also, all this talk of it not having a modem etc. it's a high end product generally bought by people with a high disposable income, those people will most likely not have your average ADSL instead having fibre or VM which have their own separate modems anyway which is what the TC depends upon. This number is only going to increase anyway so it's a moot point.
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In the world that you inhabit fibre might be a reality - however, for most of the geographical UK it's something one can only dream about. I doubt where I live I will see it in my lifetime - so your point is a moot point.

I never said it didn't work out of the box - please please go back and re-read. I said in order for it to work out of the box it's many capabilities are not used.

Had you had a router instead of a modem would you like to provide us with a walk through workshop of just how to turn the TC/AC into a fully fledged router - precise settings etc.?
 
1. Plug in Openreach modem
2. Set internet connection to PPPoE in AirPort Utility (which you can use from an iPhone)
3. Pick [email protected] as your username
4. Enter anything for your password

I don't care about setting it up for other ISPs, because I don't use those.

I still don't get what you're aiming to achieve here. Nobody in this thread has said they bought an AirPort because it was the cheapest or easiest thing to set up, everyone has bought it for the quality and reliability. Which it delivers on.
 
Caged said:
1. Plug in Openreach modem
2. Set internet connection to PPPoE in AirPort Utility (which you can use from an iPhone)
3. Pick [email protected] as your username
4. Enter anything for your password

I don't care about setting it up for other ISPs, because I don't use those.

I still don't get what you're aiming to achieve here. Nobody in this thread has said they bought an AirPort because it was the cheapest or easiest thing to set up, everyone has bought it for the quality and reliability. Which it delivers on.
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I said for the majority of us that use a standard router/modem not for those that are lucky enough to have fibre.

I'm simply saying that it's capabilities are compromised by trying to make it an out of the box solution.
 
But I don't care about those people. If I didn't have Infinity with the separate modem and wasn't technically capable of either bridging an ISP supplied ADSL router or replacing it with something like a Draytek ADSL modem, I wouldn't have bought an AirPort.

However, for people that want a centralised backup target for their Macs and improved Wi-Fi, there's still value to be had in adding the Time Capsule to their existing network.
 
Caged said:
But I don't care about those people. If I didn't have Infinity with the separate modem and wasn't technically capable of either bridging an ISP supplied ADSL router or replacing it with something like a Draytek ADSL modem, I wouldn't have bought an AirPort.

However, for people that want a centralised backup target for their Macs and improved Wi-Fi, there's still value to be had in adding the Time Capsule to their existing network.
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You may not care about anyone else and if that's your personal position then fine. That however isn't really what the discussion is about. For an out of the box product it is compromised by the very fact that the average user would have a struggle to set it up as a router rather than just using it as a glorified gigabit connection with wireless capabilities.

I suspect that as you yourself have said, if you have a separate ADSL modem then it might be quite easy to set up. If however you have to go into an ADSL modem/router and start switching off wireless DCHP server, switch to Bridge mode and then start putting settings into Airport Utility that is a whole different conversation, even if you can get into the settings.
 
The discussion is about why people on an internet forum about computers would buy a Time Capsule or AirPort, I'm not sure why you keep bringing up this hypothetical average user with an assumption that using an application to set the device up is tough.

Even if this average user plugs it into their existing router and can't turn the router into bridge mode, the benefits of improved Wi-Fi and centralised backup are still there, so the product is doing its job.

I might sort of sympathise with your argument if the AirPort was the only router on the market that didn't take itself out of the box, plug itself in and set itself up, except it isn't. I'm assuming that your point about people not even being able to navigate to the AirPort Utility means that you find a poorly translated web interface much more user friendly? Tell me this is easier: http://event.asus.com/2012/nw/dummy_ui/EN/index.html

I'm not sure what your agenda is here. Keep flying the flag for people who are incapable of reading anything and defend them from evil Apple taking their money and only letting them use half the features of their Time Capsule if you want, the rest of us are going to carry on enjoying an excellent Wi-Fi signal and not having to computer janitor our networks all the time. When you're finished you can go into some other forums and tell people buying TVs with 4 HDMI ports and 2 devices that they're wasting their money and Panasonic is screwing them.

Edit: I'm done here. You asked why people buy the Time Capsule, you've had answers from people who spent their money on one several times over. If you don't want one or have found a single box that requires no setting up, acts as a central backup location, has fantastic Wi-Fi, a UI that wasn't poorly translated from Chinese and doesn't break after 8 months then buy one and shut up.
 
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AbsenceJam said:
This does seem to be the point of the topic. Asks a question when he all ready has an answer he likes, and then argues with every response.
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Not even going to bother editing my last reply, or with this thread. Sounds like it's heading down the same route as the thread with NirK a while back - lots of valid points being made from other posters, then loads BS responses from the OP who fails to realise that what they are saying applies to all similar products, not just the Apple ones.
 
Caged said:
The discussion is about why people on an internet forum about computers would buy a Time Capsule or AirPort, I'm not sure why you keep bringing up this hypothetical average user with an assumption that using an application to set the device up is tough.

Even if this average user plugs it into their existing router and can't turn the router into bridge mode, the benefits of improved Wi-Fi and centralised backup are still there, so the product is doing its job.

I might sort of sympathise with your argument if the AirPort was the only router on the market that didn't take itself out of the box, plug itself in and set itself up, except it isn't. I'm assuming that your point about people not even being able to navigate to the AirPort Utility means that you find a poorly translated web interface much more user friendly? Tell me this is easier: http://event.asus.com/2012/nw/dummy_ui/EN/index.html

I'm not sure what your agenda is here. Keep flying the flag for people who are incapable of reading anything and defend them from evil Apple taking their money and only letting them use half the features of their Time Capsule if you want, the rest of us are going to carry on enjoying an excellent Wi-Fi signal and not having to computer janitor our networks all the time. When you're finished you can go into some other forums and tell people buying TVs with 4 HDMI ports and 2 devices that they're wasting their money and Panasonic is screwing them.

Edit: I'm done here. You asked why people buy the Time Capsule, you've had answers from people who spent their money on one several times over. If you don't want one or have found a single box that requires no setting up, acts as a central backup location, has fantastic Wi-Fi, a UI that wasn't poorly translated from Chinese and doesn't break after 8 months then buy one and shut up.
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What a bizarre and totally off the wall defensive response - breathtaking.
Let's look at this in a bit more detail -

Societies all over the world quote Mr & Mrs Average - have you actually tried to set up an AE or TC using an ISP supplied router, or any router for that matter by getting into the settings and I don't mean switching of wireless in a Sky supplied router etc?

You then appear to have some sort of paranoia or think I have about Apple? I currently have an iMac, ATV, iPod and iPad oh and did have a Mac Mini - what were you saying again about evil Apple? :rolleyes:

You then keep babbling on about a centralised back up system - whatever that is when its at home? A bog standard USB or external Firewire 800 drive will carry out the same backup tasks. Simply point Time Machine to your drive and Voila job done.

I was actually saying the TC is quite a decent product spoilt by Apple trying to make it an out of the box experience. It is so much more than that but most users, you included if I'm not mistaken will never use it to its full potential.

Thank goodness you are done though as you've added little to the debate apart from lack of understanding of the issues including the products potential.
 
lamboman said:
Not even going to bother editing my last reply, or with this thread. Sounds like it's heading down the same route as the thread with NirK a while back - lots of valid points being made from other posters, then loads BS responses from the OP who fails to realise that what they are saying applies to all similar products, not just the Apple ones.
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I've yet to read a valid point - truly.

If you haven't got one or getting one, please borrow one and try to turn it into what it's capable of i.e. a fully fledged router using a router/modem, supplied by ISP or otherwise. After which tell me just how easy it is or otherwise - for someone who is not a geek that is.

For most people it turns out to be a rather expensive router that they can't actually use as one.
 
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I'm still failing to see what the difficulty for the average consumer may be.

Enter basic connection details given to you (seems average for most ISP's to do this) into a modem such as the Vigor 120 and plug in the TC (and enter the username stuff), OR, (set the router to bridge), and enter details into TC.

If too hard, don't do it.
If you don't want a TC, don't do it.
If the TC doesn't seem good value, don't do it.
If you fail to read half of the (what I found) very useful stuff already said, don't do it.

[/Thread #2]
 
Ryan-3 said:
I'm still failing to see what the difficulty for the average consumer may be.

Enter basic connection details given to you (seems average for most ISP's to do this) into a modem such as the Vigor 120 and plug in the TC (and enter the username stuff), OR, (set the router to bridge), and enter details into TC.

If too hard, don't do it.
If you don't want a TC, don't do it.
If the TC doesn't seem good value, don't do it.
If you fail to read half of the (what I found) very useful stuff already said, don't do it.

[/Thread #2]
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Whoa! Just a minute there. Think about the last time you visited an Apple store. Your average consumer wouldn't know about buying a DSL modem, they certainly wouldn't realise they needed to access their existing routers settings to get the best out of the product or even how to do it if they did.

This isn't about me getting a TC/AE, I already have a backup solution that works well. I think one or two people need to remove their rosé tinted Apple glasses and look at this product from the consumer who just has a basic knowledge. This is supposed to be a router and from what I've seen and read not a bad one. The problem is that for most people getting it to work as one is not a simple solution. Now if some of you can't or won't see that then the problem isn't with me.
 
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Faustus said:
I've yet to read a valid point - truly.

If you haven't got one or getting one, please borrow one and try to turn it into what it's capable of i.e. a fully fledged router using a router/modem, supplied by ISP or otherwise. After which tell me just how easy it is or otherwise - for someone who is not a geek that is.

For most people it turns out to be a rather expensive router that they can't actually use as one.
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I have that exact setup, and have done for several years now. For me, setup was dead easy. For the average Joe, it would be extremely difficult. Why? Well, because the ADSL modem needs to support bridge mode and the ISP needs to support PPPoE, or the modem needs to be capable of converting PPPoA-to-PPPoE/PPPoE-to-PPPoA. The average Joe will have no idea what the hell any of these are. That is a restriction of the modem/ISPs service, not the AirPort Extreme. These setups can often be difficult or impossible to configure on the device connected to the line, hence why bridging the AEBS/TC is often the best option.

You are claiming that this "issue" is a problem with the AEBS/TC when in fact it applies to all routers that don't have built-in DSL modems (see above). Read up on the different encapsulation methods used for DSL and cable (PPPoA and PPPoE, no need to understand them, but just be aware of them and their uses), as well as the use of bridging, and you'll understand where you are going wrong.

Why the AEBS/TC do not have DSL modems has already been covered, hence why configuring these two in bridge mode (in other words, just as a WAP) is often the best option (again, see above).
 
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lamboman said:
I have that exact setup, and have done for several years now. For me, setup was dead easy. For the average Joe, it would be extremely difficult. Why? Well, because the ADSL modem needs to support bridge mode and the ISP needs to support PPPoE, or the modem needs to be capable of converting PPPoA-to-PPPoE/PPPoE-to-PPPoA. The average Joe will have no idea what the hell any of these are. That is a restriction of the modem/ISPs service, not the AirPort Extreme. These setups can often be difficult or impossible to configure on the device connected to the line, hence why bridging the AEBS/TC is often the best option.

You are claiming that this "issue" is a problem with the AEBS/TC when in fact it applies to all routers that don't have built-in DSL modems (see above). Read up on the different encapsulation methods used for DSL and cable (PPPoA and PPPoE, no need to understand them, but just be aware of them and their uses), as well as the use of bridging, and you'll understand where you are going wrong.

Why the AEBS/TC do not have DSL modems has already been covered, hence why configuring these two in bridge mode (in other words, just as a WAP) is often the best option (again, see above).
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I absolutely agree with all that you've said. Where the fault lies isn't really the issue though. You say bridge mode? Do you actually mean bridge mode or bridge off setting on the TC/AE? If you mean bridge mode then the average consumer would be lost about how to access that on the router or the settings on the Apple product e.g. DCHP etc. This is what compromises this product.
 
Am I the only one who uses a variety of hardware?

My Sky router does the internet gateway work and connects to the Sky+HD box, it connects to a gigabit switch for the real hard work, and an Airport Express provides AirPlay via Optical connection to my AV Receiver.

Once I get a new set of homeplugs, I'll use those to connect another wireless access point in the back room. I also have a spare wireless access point (Me and my girlfriend recently lived separately, so I've got a surplus of networking hardware) which will be used if I don't find Sky's is up to the task.

That said, I live in a block of flats so have a LOT of 802.11 frequency congestion - I find having a network spread over each of the 3 main channels helps (with my own speeds, not with the congestion)
 
Faustus said:
I absolutely agree with all that you've said. Where the fault lies isn't really the issue though. You say bridge mode? Do you actually mean bridge mode or bridge off setting on the TC/AE? If you mean bridge mode then the average consumer would be lost about how to access that on the router or the settings on the Apple product e.g. DCHP etc. This is what compromises this product.
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Yes, the "Bridge (Off)" setting in AU.

Like with any other product, they would use the instruction manual and follow the instructions provided in the setup wizard.

This is absurd. You claim that you agree with what I've said, yet you still claim the AEBS/TC is at fault. This isn't even about the merits of these products; as I have said time and time again, the "issue" is with the capabilities of the modem as well as the ISP's service. Your points apply to every single router on the market that does not have a DSL modem - where the fault lies is entirely the issue, and it is not with the router. This is the way Internet connectivity works. There is nothing wrong with what Apple or any other company have done when it comes to this - it is pretty much all the same when you take nomenclature and configuration interfaces out of the equation. Apple has merely wrapped it up in a package that is far easier to use than any other product on the market, with a software utility that babysits you most of the way (it actually explains the majority of the configuration options).

The only way that this will change is if someone goes ahead and designs entirely new protocols and encapsulation methods that are more simple for end-users, that are then adopted around the world. Of course, that isn't going to happen.

I'm sorry, but at this point you are either trolling, or you are rather uninformed. This isn't about opinions now; as above, this is about how Internet connectivity works.
 
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lamboman said:
Yes, the "Bridge (Off)" setting in AU.

Like with any other product, they would use the instruction manual and follow the instructions provided in the setup wizard.

This is absurd. You claim that you agree with what I've said, yet you still claim the AEBS/TC is at fault. This isn't even about the merits of these products; as I have said time and time again, the "issue" is with the capabilities of the modem as well as the ISP's service. Your points apply to every single router on the market that does not have a DSL modem - where the fault lies is entirely the issue, and it is not with the router. This is the way Internet connectivity works. There is nothing wrong with what Apple or any other company have done when it comes to this - it is pretty much all the same when you take nomenclature and configuration interfaces out of the equation. Apple has merely wrapped it up in a package that is far easier to use than any other product on the market, with a software utility that babysits you most of the way (it actually explains the majority of the configuration options).

The only way that this will change is if someone goes ahead and designs entirely new protocols and encapsulation methods that are more simple for end-users, that are then adopted around the world. Of course, that isn't going to happen.

I'm sorry, but at this point you are either trolling, or you are rather uninformed. This isn't about opinions now; as above, this is about how Internet connectivity works.
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I'm sorry to read your mis-informed views, obviously to much cider. When is a router not a router? when it's from Apple apparently. All I am reading from you is reasons/excuses as to why most users cannot use this product as designed. This isn't about opinions at all (well maybe your's which are ill informed) it's about fact. I have lot's of Apple tech most of which has no peer. However, I hope I'm mature enough to recognise a product that for the average user is compromised. Doesn't appear that you are.

BTW there are plenty of competent easy to use DSL modems as well as routers on the market.
 
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