Poundland Girl Wins Forced Labour Ruling

[estebanrey]

one thing i have noticed is a lot of the rhetoric about lazy jobless people is coming from people who have done ok for themselves

Well that's not me. I'm the lowest paid member of my team and earn quite a bit less than the average national wage.

I've been out of work before and every time I've walked into a temp agency, got a job within a few days and managed to impress that employer enough to get taken on full time.

My last three jobs have come this way. At the same time I see other temps come and go like the wind, not turning up on time or just taking time off at a whim and generally not giving a ****. They then moan and complain about unfairness when they let go.

 

[FoxEye]

So would you put being expected to do a couple of weeks of work experience in the same category as the railway building POW's of vietnam or the Nazi labour camps of WW2 (Godwin I know)?

It's not always 'a couple weeks work'. They can (and do) put you on a 6-month unpaid placement, then a month or two after completion, put you on *another* 6-month unpaid placement.

If it was just two weeks a year I don't think there would be nearly as much opposition. It would be much harder for employers to incorporate into their business model also, as they would be continually training new recruits.

 

[Sudden]

Of course an eager slave sounds better to a particularly unprincipled employer. That enables them to sack someone and save the money they would have spent on wages. You weren't talking about someone who's keen to work. You were talking about someone who will pay a lot of money and go to a lot of trouble to work for nothing. I'm curious about one thing - how do you think they should get the money to pay for the 10 bus journeys per day?

Something being attractive to unpleasant people doesn't necessarily mean that it's right.

I think it's telling that in the famous Four Old Yorkshiremen sketch by Monty Python, it's not until the final absurd story by the last one that they get to what you consider a good idea - having to pay for work for nothing.

Travel (if it's onerous such as this case) should perhaps be covered by the benefits (as in - additional allowance, on presentation of receipts). I have said in the past as well - the scheme is not without it's faults.

In terms of what sounds better - I was talking more about future employers. If you get a bunch of CV's, would you rather take someone who did something, and has a good reference, or someone who did nothing?

Not to mention, the current employer could also be impressed by you and decide 'you know what, this guy is good. It's worth it to me to pay more and keep him on rather than get someone new in, whose cheaper, who I need to train up all over again'. And before people come in yelling 'it's not training' - there is something to be said for company culture and ways of working

AAARRR, I see, so cause you can't get anything no one else should.

I'm not a student but I fought for them when the libdems screwed em over. I guess I'm just like that, fight injustices even if they don't effect me.

No - you said that I was cutting my own throat. My point was - no i'm not. I don't have access to any of these things anyway (regardless of the fact that I pay as much tax, NI etc. in as anyone else).

That's only part of the reason why I don't have a problem with the scheme. I've grown up in a culture where it is very much a case of you either work, or your family supports you, or you starve. I have been very fortunate that my family has been in a position to support me. But I wouldn't expect anyone other than family to be supporting me, regardless of the situation. This scheme seems very much to be 'work, or we'll stop giving you money'. Not 'work here for next to no pay. And by the way, you aren't allowed to work anyone else'. If that was the case, then that would be forced labour.

 

[spankingtexan]

you do it or you starve,

Which part of forced do you people NOT understand? or are people in this thread not being clear enough.

Your choices are, either you do it get sanctioned have no money to feed your kids yourself your dog, or do the work experience and work full time for under minimum wage.

It is forced, period. No arguments. There is no viable alternative you can't really turn around and say no I'm not doing it.

 

[elmarko]

I just don't understand why they don't simply pay them a basic hourly rate for the work done - it's hardly going to be a massive amount of money & squashes most of the arguments against it.

Personally I think the entire scheme is a load of rubbish, because in a society with more people than jobs - this kind of approach is already futile.

Even if we had a population of 100% willing to work, it would not magic enough jobs for them to fill, which seems to be a point missed more often than not by most.

It's great if you happen to live in a local area with a large amount of jobs, but the UK has a huge disparity in available employment & people end up paying post-code lottery.

 

[Dolph]

Well that's not me. I'm the lowest paid member of my team and earn quite a bit less than the average national wage.

I've been out of work before and every time I've walked into a temp agency, got a job within a few days and managed to impress that employer enough to get taken on full time.

My last three jobs have come this way. At the same time I see other temps come and go like the wind, not turning up on time or just taking time off at a whim and generally not giving a ****. They then moan and complain about unfairness when they let go.

Indeed, I have done minimun wage work, fast food and the like. I have done the zero hours contract thing. I started at the bottom with my current employer and worked up.

Most people who have done ok for themselves worked hard to get there, and yes, we do often object when people who don't show the same willingness complain they don't get anywhere or that they deserve to be supported by the rest of us. To be successful, you have to be willing, sometimes it means putting up with real crap in the process, but that is how life goes.

I am more than willing to help people, but I don't see why anyone should be better off on benefits than in work, and I don't accept that there are no alternatives to the current setup.

 

[Biohazard]

Indeed, I have done minimun wage work, fast food and the like. I have done the zero hours contract thing. I started at the bottom with my current employer and worked up.

Most people who have done ok for themselves worked hard to get there, and yes, we do often object when people who don't show the same willingness complain they don't get anywhere or that they deserve to be supported by the rest of us. To be successful, you have to be willing, sometimes it means putting up with real crap in the process, but that is how life goes.

I am more than willing to help people, but I don't see why anyone should be better off on benefits than in work, and I don't accept that there are no alternatives to the current setup.

Who is 'we', and how are you to judge the experiences of others merely by certain expressed opinions?

Seems to be predicated on assumption if you ask me.

 

[Calabi]

See we can all be successful if only we try. So says Dolph.

 

[Dolph]

See we can all be successful if only we try. So says Dolph.

More accurate to say if you don't try you are very unlikely to be successful. Unwillingness to try, complaining it is hard or unfair or beneath you is very unlikely to lead to success, and nor is trying to stick it to the man...

 

[Biohazard]

More accurate to say if you don't try you are very unlikely to be successful. Unwillingness to try, complaining it is hard or unfair or beneath you is very unlikely to lead to success, and nor is trying to stick it to the man...

What of those who try, but ultimately do not succeed?

 

[Calabi]

More accurate to say if you don't try you are very unlikely to be successful. Unwillingness to try, complaining it is hard or unfair or beneath you is very unlikely to lead to success, and nor is trying to stick it to the man...

When everybody is trying then how can everybody be successful. If everybody tries to be promoted, to become a manager, the majority will end up disappointed. There is only so much room for so much success.

Blaming everyone because their not succeeding and trying hard enough... its not realistic.

 

[Woden]

When everybody is trying then how can everybody be successful. If everybody tries to be promoted, to become a manager, the majority will end up disappointed. There is only so much room for so much success.

Blaming everyone because their not succeeding and trying hard enough... its not realistic.

That is the problem with going as deep into raw capitalism as the likes of Dolph. The whole system is based on making sure the vast majority fail to succeed.

 

[atpbx]

What of those who try, but ultimately do not succeed?

Well that's just one of the harsh realities of life unfortunately , what about those who don't succeed?

Ultimately nobody really cares, otherwise things would be different.

 

[atpbx]

When everybody is trying then how can everybody be successful. If everybody tries to be promoted, to become a manager, the majority will end up disappointed. There is only so much room for so much success.

Blaming everyone because their not succeeding and trying hard enough... its not realistic.

Well then you have to ask your self do you live in the real world and accept that not everybody is the same and that some people have to be poor for the system to work, OR do you put your big boy pants on and try and change the world so everybody is the same (which would mean everybody would have to work as hard as everyone else for the same reward, which would prove difficult as some people don't want to have to work at all, rich or poor).

Because nobody else is going to do anything about it.

 

[Calabi]

The thing is the majority of people are happy with not having success of having enough.

If the successful people take too much, so the not successful have less and less then we will end up with a problem.

 

[Rofflay]

Then why not set up your own business, and employ all these highly entitled...I mean principled young people you feel are being so hard done by?

I suppose it's easier to just say "the world aint fair" and do nothing about but bitch and moan.

I challenge my bosses all the time if they do something I disagree with. I get away with it because I've worked hard to make myself unsackable (I know, no one is 'indispensable' yada yada) because I've proved I have skills that my other colleagues don't.

If you don't have unique skills or ideas, and are easily interchangeable then unfortunately you have to accept you have to make more sacrifices than others who don't.

Having a high opinion of yourself is all very well, but there's a difference between demanding respect and being down right delusional and thinking the world owes you a living.

Im glad other people got here before me to argue the same point im going to argue.Who are you calling delusional here for thinking the world owes me a living?
You are the delusional person as the world owes any human born into it a living.It owes me a very small plot of land to grow my own food,harvest my own rain water and build shelter to raise a family like humans have had right up until capitalism.


Considering that most of that is impossible for a human until they earn enough to buy it outright in old age, or work for such basic human entitlements as food and water then it is slavery.
You either work or starve, or as the modern age has it instead of starving you sign on.People like yourself obviously have issues with the signing on bit and want to skip right to the starvation bit i presume? You have no idea how the world works obviously.The wool has been pulled over your eyes so much you dont even know you were born a slave but managed to work your out of it!


Or have you worked your way out of it at all? Is the mortgage fully paid yet or are you still relying on people's combined bank accounts and printed money? hoho

 

[Biohazard]

Well that's just one of the harsh realities of life unfortunately , what about those who don't succeed?

Ultimately nobody really cares, otherwise things would be different.

See, I can't help but think that some people do actually care. Although this was the sort of response I thought that comment may solicit.

 

[FoxEye]

The thing is the majority of people are happy not having success if they have enough.

If the successful people take too much, so the not successful have less and less then we will end up with a problem.

There is plenty of evidence that even during the so-called economic crisis, the rich continued to grow their share of the UK's total wealth.

First hit from Google:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...t-richer-while-everyone-else-gets-poorer.html

Now I'm not sure for how long this trend could continue, or how extreme things could become. I would hope that there is some kind of natural balancing at work, to prevent 90% of us sliding into abject poverty, whilst the 10% end up owning everything.

But nevertheless, the rich are getting richer, and many of us working class peons are indeed getting (relatively) poorer, and plenty of analysts predict this will continue for the foreseeable future. In fact it's been happening continually for the last decade or more.

Lastly, the Tories are probably the last people on Earth who would see any problem at all with the rich getting ever richer. It's in their DNA.

 

[CREATIVE!11]

So would you put being expected to do a couple of weeks of work experience in the same category as the railway building POW's of vietnam or the Nazi labour camps of WW2 (Godwin I know)?

Calling this 'forced labour' is a disgusting insult to the the millions of people who've experienced it. Living in a rich western country that gives you money every week for your misfortune is a paradise compared to how many people around the world live today.

As the latest saying goes, check your privilege.

To be fair if I was forced for couple weeks I'd not be that fussed, 2-3 weeks maybe. But what would be better is USEFUL work experience not picking weeds in a football ground....

But they can make it last up to 2-3 months or even 6 months.

 

[v0n]

the world owes any human born into it a living.It owes me a very small plot of land to grow my own food,harvest my own rain water and build shelter to raise a family like humans have had right up until capitalism.

I think you need to go back to the books and come up with something else world owes you good fella. Apart from a brief and short moment in history (settlers, conquest of Wild West, before it turned out they still owe someone something for what the found and established themselves), this whole "world owes me small plot of land" not happened anywhere in western civilisation in the last thousand years. Not in communism, not in socialism, not in feudalism, not in slavery. What you are asking was last time seen among early communes of hunters & gatherers?