Who here is a teacher?

Diagro · 12 Sep 2013 at 13:03

Castiel said:
Training a Police Officer is an ongoing procedure, many officers now have a degree, with much of the recruitment coming from graduates programmes. Police recruitment assessments are not easy and to suggest that being a teacher is somehow more valuable simply because they do a degree is disingenuous. Also a PCGE can be done whilst working, through schemes such as the School Direct or SCITT programs which pay a bursary of up to £20k in support or through a salaried system for those with relevant experience outside of teaching. There are also schemes (at least one that I knew of) that mean ypou can become a QTS without a degree if you have other skills and qualifications.

So you can become a teacher with a 3 year degree and then work while obtaining your one year (2 years if p/t outside of a school environment) PCGE.

Not much different from many other comparable professions such as accountancy for example.

Accountancy is not a comparable profession

Raymond Lin · 12 Sep 2013 at 13:03

I just wish they stop striking or threaten to strike every year.

I don't know any other careers that do it this often. What has changed that drasticly in 12 months that they need to strike again? I don't understand.

Most other jobs if you don't like your pay or working conditions or hours, you quit and look for something else. Why can't you do that as a teacher? There are no laws to force you into staying with such position or career. Surely one knows of the pitfalls before going into such profession, i mean they strike enough to be on the news often enough for any new applicants to notice...

I respect them and what they do and all but these strikes seem more petty than anything else.

They should pass a law and make it illegal for teachers to strike, like the police and arm forces.

Xordium · 12 Sep 2013 at 13:08

Castiel said:
Training a Police Officer is an ongoing procedure, many officers now have a degree, with much of the recruitment coming from graduates programmes. Police recruitment assessments are not easy and to suggest that being a teacher is somehow more valuable simply because they do a degree is disingenuous.

And teaching and the other professions do not have ongoing procedures? They may take graduates but it is not a prerequisite. That is not to belittle it. However, at the end of the day the entry criteria is higher for teachers. And how exactly is accountancy comparable - it's completely different?!?

Castiel · 12 Sep 2013 at 13:12

Diagro said:
Yea she is and has been teaching for 2 years.

The school she is now at is using Phonics a lot and her previous school was using a new thing called read write ink.

I don't know half of what she does and only what she tells me so you may be a teacher with far more knowledge than myself, after all i am a lowly Solar Engineer

I'm not a teacher, at least not in the school system. I am a Linguist which is why I know a bit about language and how it is taught etc. Phonics is good, but like most things it should not be used in isolation, a fact many schools are now getting to grips with thankfully.

Diagro said:
Yea I say looking after 30 children is comparable to a police office walking around looking for trouble all day, actually its more important because the children's future depends on it!
Yes police have their uses and i respect them but when compared to a role in society that will allow the next generation achieve greater.. i know who i will pick

I disagree insofar that each position forms a specific need in society and both are essential to a functioning and stable progressive society. I don't think it is a position that you can pick which is preferable.

I think the issue is that while Teaching is a very respectable profession, sometimes the actions of unions and by association their members often (unintentionally I would imagine) demean other professions in order to bolster the importance of teachers. Teachers have a good career path in the UK, the benefits are good, the working conditions are reasonable and while there are disadvantages, there are also advantages. Often the Unions and their supporters will focus only on the disadvantages while denying there are any advantages. In the current climate this only shifts public opinion against the Profession as everyone is struggling with worsening T&Cs and falling pensions etc.

Ultimately teaching like any profession needs to have some form of merit based progression, currently this is not the case, with poorly performing teachers being protected and exceptional teachers being sidelined. This is something that needs addressing in my opinion, as you have said, good teachers are fundamental to progressive society through our children, however bad teachers are the opposite.

Diagro · 12 Sep 2013 at 13:13

Raymond Lin said:
I just wish they stop striking or threaten to strike every year.

I don't know any other careers that do it this often. What has changed that drasticly in 12 months that they need to strike again? I don't understand.

Most other jobs if you don't like your pay or working conditions or hours, you quit and look for something else. Why can't you do that as a teacher? There are no laws to force you into staying with such position or career. Surely one knows of the pitfalls before going into such profession, i mean they strike enough to be on the news often enough for any new applicants to notice...

I respect them and what they do and all but these strikes seem more petty than anything else.

They should pass a law and make it illegal for teachers to strike, like the police and arm forces.

Its very hard to find a job as a teacher

Also if you deny them the ability to strike would it not be impossible for them to stop the Government removing their pension?

Diagro · 12 Sep 2013 at 13:15

Castiel said:
I'm not a teacher, at least not in the school system. I am a Linguist which is why I know a bit about language and how it is taught etc. Phonics is good, but like most things it should not be used in isolation, a fact many schools are now getting to grips with thankfully.

I disagree insofar that each position forms a specific need in society and both are essential to a functioning and stable progressive society. I don't think it is a position that you can pick which is preferable.

I think the issue is that while Teaching is a very respectable profession, sometimes the actions of unions and by association their members often (unintentionally I would imagine) demean other professions in order to bolster the importance of teachers. Teachers have a good career path in the UK, the benefits are good, the working conditions are reasonable and while there are disadvantages, there are also advantages. Often the Unions and their supporters will focus only on the disadvantages while denying there are any advantages. In the current climate this only shifts public opinion against the Profession as everyone is struggling with worsening T&Cs and falling pensions etc.

Ultimately teaching like any profession needs to have some form of merit based progression, currently this is not the case, with poorly performing teachers being protected and exceptional teachers being sidelined. This is something that needs addressing in my opinion, as you have said, good teachers are fundamental to progressive society through our children, however bad teachers are the opposite.

I like you. And i agree

Castiel · 12 Sep 2013 at 13:16

Xordium said:
And teaching and the other professions do not have ongoing procedures? They may take graduates but it is not a prerequisite. That is not to belittle it. However, at the end of the day the entry criteria is higher for teachers. And how exactly is accountancy comparable - it's completely different?!?

It is comparable insofar that a degree is only the beginning of the process, the professional qualifications are the most important and are invariably taken after you graduate while in an employment environment. (ACCA, ICAEW being the equivalent in accountancy as the PCGE and QTS are in teaching)

I also did not say that teaching did not have ongoing training, only that the Police is not quite as straight forward as passing an entrance exam and off you go....

platypus · 12 Sep 2013 at 13:17

Diagro said:
Its very hard to find a job as a teacher

Also if you deny them the ability to strike would it not be impossible for them to stop the Government removing their pension?

Pretty sure a government trying to remove the teaching pension would be blocked by legal action.

Raymond Lin · 12 Sep 2013 at 13:18

Diagro said:
Its very hard to find a job as a teacher

Also if you deny them the ability to strike would it not be impossible for them to stop the Government removing their pension?

It is also very hard to find a job as a junior barrister or a training contract as a solicitor...it's not the only profession that is difficult to get a job in.

Re: pension, the same way how they deal with the pension to the police, fire service or army? or hell, go private, you know, like the private sector does?

You know the working hours when you sign up, you know the working conditions when you sign up (at minimum we all went to school !), you know the pay bracket before you sign up. So when you strike because of the above, it seems like you went into the job blind and now just moaning.

Castiel · 12 Sep 2013 at 13:21

Diagro said:
Accountancy is not a comparable profession

I disagree, it is a qualified professional position. While the jobs are obviously not the same, the level at which they are in the job market is comparable regards salaries, status and the qualification and ability needed to be successful.

Xordium · 12 Sep 2013 at 13:27

Castiel said:
I also did not say that teaching did not have ongoing training, only that the Police is not quite as straight forward as passing an entrance exam and off you go....

Neither is teaching get in and there you stay. But it has a higher entry barrier.

Irish_Tom · 12 Sep 2013 at 13:32

I'm not a teacher but I do work for a number of schools, colleges and universities. My partner is a teacher, both my parents were, most of my partner's family are or were so I've got a pretty good knowledge of the education sector.

Raymond Lin said:
You know the working hours when you sign up, you know the working conditions when you sign up (at minimum we all went to school !), you know the pay bracket before you sign up. So when you strike because of the above, it seems like you went into the job blind and now just moaning.

The problem is that the government keep changing the pay and conditions so that they aren't what people signed up for.

The government renegotiated teachers' pay and pensions back at the start of the recession so that the pay scale bands were adjusted, a pay freeze was enforced and pension contributions were increased. The negotiations were tough but the Unions eventually agreed and most teachers thought they had 'done their bit' towards the cuts and austerity.

Then the government decided to extend the pay freeze and limit any increases to 1%, as well as increasing pension contributions (again). This was the cause of the strikes in 2011/12.

Now the government are talking about scrapping national pay scales and introducing performance related pay. Both ideas have their merits but they also have disadvantages and the Unions have to stand up for their members.

Tie in all of the above with the massive upheaval of the entire education system by Gove and it's not hard to see why some teachers feel they are being unfairly targeted.

Castiel · 12 Sep 2013 at 13:38

Xordium said:
Neither is teaching get in and there you stay. But it has a higher entry barrier.

Indeed it does, but that doesn't mean that the occupation itself has more value, simply that the entry requirements as regards formal qualifications is greater.

easyrider · 12 Sep 2013 at 13:53

Raymond Lin said:
So when you strike because of the above, it seems like you went into the job blind and now just moaning.

The government moved the goalposts though. Imagine being a teacher for over 30 years with a retirement of 55 then be told 5 years before you retire you now have to work until your 65.

Also people who have been teachers for a while got into it knowing full well what the pension was.

Then it was changed so they went on strike.

easyrider · 12 Sep 2013 at 13:55

Irish_Tom said:
The problem is that the government keep changing the pay and conditions so that they aren't what people signed up for.

.

Indeed they did.

a lot of BS being posted in this thread by people not in the know of the complete picture.

Diagro · 12 Sep 2013 at 13:57

Castiel said:
I disagree, it is a qualified professional position. While the jobs are obviously not the same, the level at which they are in the job market is comparable regards salaries, status and the qualification and ability needed to be successful.

hey

I didn't mean in that way, I meant it in a different way which i cant at the moment put into words, Brains full of gubbins

Xordium · 12 Sep 2013 at 14:02

Castiel said:
Indeed it does, but that doesn't mean that the occupation itself has more value, simply that the entry requirements as regards formal qualifications is greater.

I never said it did. I was merely pointing out a few things.

Raymond Lin · 12 Sep 2013 at 14:05

easyrider said:
The government moved the goalposts though. Imagine being a teacher for over 30 years with a retirement of 55 then be told 5 years before you retire you now have to work until your 65.

Also people who have been teachers for a while got into it knowing full well what the pension was.

Then it was changed so they went on strike.

Then you renegotiate in a proper way, not hold the nation's children as ransom.

Any other job you would sit down with your boss and talk over it, if you don't like it, you quit and find something else. What you don't do is sit and home and not go to work, or worse still, stand outside the office with a banner and chanting ! It is terrible etiquette if you ask me.

Castiel · 12 Sep 2013 at 14:10

Xordium said:
I never said it did. I was merely pointing out a few things.

As was I originally pointing out that value is not necessarily dependent upon specific entry requirements.

easyrider · 12 Sep 2013 at 14:16

Raymond Lin said:
Then you renegotiate in a proper way, not hold the nation's children as ransom.

Any other job you would sit down with your boss and talk over it, if you don't like it, you quit and find something else. What you don't do is sit and home and not go to work, or worse still, stand outside the office with a banner and chanting ! It is terrible etiquette if you ask me.

Thats because it doesn't effect you.

So I quit my job after 30 years service and find another just like that?

who is going to employ a 50 year old and doing what?

BS