Cyclist plague spreading

[Castiel]

I also think that differentiating between overtaking and 'driving along side' is splitting hairs.

I don't, they are two different manoeuvres. You overtake to get ahead of the vehicle (cyclist) in front when the road is clear, you drive alongside in slow moving heavy traffic....

I thought you said you started slowing as soon as they commence their overtaking manoeuvre? How do you know whether you'll ned to slow down or not when the vehicle is behind you?

The road conditions, for example if there is a junction ahead, or other vehicles ahead, or oncoming traffic, or any number of other conditions that need accounting for when making decisions as to what is appropiate...I begin to prepare as soon a the vehicle begins his manoeuvre...what do you do, ignore everything until something happens?

As a rule I begin to slow down, either by freewheeling with my hand over my brakes or if necessary braking gently....then I am in an optimum position if the car driver turns out to be a nobber.

I also think that the cyclist in the OP might have been able to avoid the collision, might being the operative word here...others are making the assumption that he simply could not...I disagree with them, given the information we have.

 

[altus]

Sir Chris Hoy is the most successful British Olympian of all time in terms of gold medal wins, as a result of last year's wins in London he surpassed previous Brits who held that accolade.


Your thread title is "Cyclist plague spreading" and go on to say "Can it be stopped", thats a deliberate attempt to be offensive. You then link to a story about a Cyclist being hit by a driver who left the scene. Chris Hoy may have retweeted the story, but surely if your issue is with him, perhaps you should have created a different thread with a link to a different story, discussing honours and who deserves them.

You also claim cycling is a 'fad'. You're crazy. You are exactly the kind of person it worries me are behind the wheel of a car, whether I'm on foot, on my bike or in my car.

I don't count who has the most gold medals as = best ever Olympian, that just your opinion so I am sorry if you are offended by that.

Where I live [ near Boxhill , so you can avoid me ] the roads are fast and bendy and cyclists have multiplied the last few years [ like a plague ].
The roads really are not safe for them.
I have even seen people with "Bike trailers" with two children loaded up on these roads seemingly oblivious to the danger they are putting their children in, that offends me.
Seeing that pratt who rode into the rear of a stationary car and whine about it also offends me.
I get that there are responsible cyclists, they do not offend me.
Sir Chris Hoy acting like a retard tweeting stuff like he did makes me think he is dumb, but he is a Knight?
Wiggo has called for safer cycling, like wearing helmets and not listening to ipods etc that makes sense to me.

In my experience cycling has increased, even Cameron has promised " a cycling revolution" so it seems its being pushed and encouraged by politicians, so maybe its not a "fad", but I hope it is.

 

[[DOD]Asprilla]

I don't, they are two different manoeuvres. You overtake to get ahead of the vehicle (cyclist) in front when the road is clear, you drive alongside in slow moving heavy traffic....

I'd made the point about Embankment that it's heavy stop start that moves quickly when it moves, particularly the stretch from Parliament Square to Blackfriars underpass. I ride Embankment at around 25mph and I get overtaken on a regular basis. You must be quick when you get off the train.

The road conditions, for example if there is a junction ahead, or other vehicles ahead, or oncoming traffic, or any number of other conditions that need accounting for when making decisions as to what is appropiate...I begin to prepare as soon a the vehicle begins his manoeuvre...what do you do, ignore everything until something happens?

No, I'm just trying to understand whether if, on a straight clear road, when a car started to overtake you would slow down as they started to overtake in order to ensure that if they were to quickly pull in front of you and brake then you'd have enough time to stop.

You claimed you did before, but now you say it depends on the road conditions, junctions, etc.

This is the issue I have; I assess the possible risk and it's likelihood of happening and I take appropriate action. That means that if someone does something utterly dumb and dangerous there is a chance that I'll be toast because I'll have deemed the likelihood as low enough for me not to prepare for it. Now you are saying that you do the same thing and that you don't slow down every time someone overtakes you.

Could it be, shock horror, that the driver did something utterly dumb and the cyclist either didn't have time to respond, or had not deemed it to be a risk because it was so completely unexpected?

I don't count who has the most gold medals as = best ever Olympian, that just your opinion so I am sorry if you are offended by that.

Where I live [ near Boxhill , so you can avoid me ] the roads are fast and bendy and cyclists have multiplied the last few years [ like a plague ].
The roads really are not safe for them.
I have even seen people with "Bike trailers" with two children loaded up on these roads seemingly oblivious to the danger they are putting their children in, that offends me.
Seeing that pratt who rode into the rear of a stationary car and whine about it also offends me.
I get that there are responsible cyclists, they do not offend me.
Sir Chris Hoy acting like a retard tweeting stuff like he did makes me think he is dumb, but he is a Knight?
Wiggo has called for safer cycling, like wearing helmets and not listening to ipods etc that makes sense to me.

In my experience cycling has increased, even Cameron has promised " a cycling revolution" so it seems its being pushed and encouraged by politicians, so maybe its not a "fad", but I hope it is.

Cycling is a pretty safe activity, it's just perceived as being unsafe. Part of this is the fault of cyclists who use the perceived dangers as a tool to lobby to make it even safe. Part of it is the fault of the media who promote roads as the domain of cars and because cyclist accidents make good stories.

Can't recall many stories about kids in chariots getting killed. There must be some. Better option than bike seats as they don't fall over should you have a minor off and they don't affect the handling / centre of mavity of the bike. Again, it's all about perception.

Helmets protect against stationary falls from heights of 2m. Nothing else. Nada. Nix. If you want to protect your head from a motor accident then wear a motorcycle helmet.
Wind noise above about 15mph means you can hear a car behind you anyway. Not sure why car drivers think cyclists can hear them all the time, haven't they been making cars quieter over the last few decades? Ironically, the biggest issue is wind turbulence around your helmet straps.

As for it being a fad, maybe. However, given public transport to work would cost me £4,200 a year and take an hour longer each day then I'll stick to cycling. Motoring and public transport ain't going to get any cheaper.

 

[Nexus]

I don't count who has the most gold medals as = best ever Olympian, that just your opinion so I am sorry if you are offended by that.

Well its hardly my opinion, its quite well know, even Steve Redgrave has acknowledge his record being beaten:

“Sir Chris Hoy should be rated right at the top of Britain’s sporting pantheon,” Redgrave said. “He is not just a big name in Britain but a major sportsman in global terms. To be winning medals and competing at the highest level for 13 years is a phenomenal achievement.

“That gave him five golds plus the silver that he won all the way back in Sydney in 2000, which is better than my five golds and a bronze,” Redgrave said.

I get that you don't like him though because he is a Cyclist.

Where I live [ near Boxhill , so you can avoid me ] the roads are fast and bendy and cyclists have multiplied the last few years [ like a plague ].

Well unfortunately for you, you live right next to what is widely regarded as England's Cycling Mecca.

The roads really are not safe for them.

That's just your opinion.
I've never had any problems on the roads of Surrey.

I have even seen people with "Bike trailers" with two children loaded up on these roads seemingly oblivious to the danger they are putting their children in, that offends me.

Again that's your opinion. You would hope that anyone who is going to overtake them or as such would give them enough room, especially when there are visibly young children. If the worst happens, it happens, but anyone who can be attested to causing an incident will be held accountable by the courts.

Seeing that pratt who rode into the rear of a stationary car and whine about it also offends me.
I get that there are responsible cyclists, they do not offend me.

Your thread title and opinions elsewhere say otherwise.

Sir Chris Hoy acting like a retard tweeting stuff like he did makes me think he is dumb, but he is a Knight?

I don't see how he is a retard for retweeting something. He is simply using his status to help trace a Motorist who quite openly made the claim he was untraceable and inappropriately left the scene.

Wiggo has called for safer cycling, like wearing helmets and not listening to ipods etc that makes sense to me.

I'm not sure how this is a point that reflects badly on Chris Hoy?

In my experience cycling has increased, even Cameron has promised " a cycling revolution" so it seems its being pushed and encouraged by politicians, so maybe its not a "fad", but I hope it is.

*Yawn* still talking about an invention from the 19th century that has been used by countless generations with only a few changes as if its some kind of fad.

 

[Castiel]

I'd made the point about Embankment that it's heavy stop start that moves quickly when it moves, particularly the stretch from Parliament Square to Blackfriars underpass. I ride Embankment at around 25mph and I get overtaken on a regular basis. You must be quick when you get off the train.

I am not a professional cyclist, my average speeds cannot match the 25mph you can do...

No, I'm just trying to understand whether if, on a straight clear road, when a car started to overtake you would slow down as they started to overtake in order to ensure that if they were to quickly pull in front of you and brake then you'd have enough time to stop.

Yes, I would...I would prepare for that eventuality. On a clear road, with plenty of room and no other factors such as junctions or whatever, then I would stop pedalling, assume a position whereby I can brake if necessary and ensure I maintain a safe distance while being aware of the vehicle overtaking...I find it strange that you cannot or will not do this. I have said numerous times now, that if a car suddenly pulls in before completing the overtaking while braking then the likelihood is that he hits me, rather than I hit him. The car would have to virtually be on top of me for me not to be able to brake in time....I wouldn't be happy, and probably wouldn't still be in my saddle...but I wouldn't ride into the back of the vehicle, particularly not hard enough to get concussion.

You claimed you did before, but now you say it depends on the road conditions, junctions, etc.

I said the actions I take depend on the road conditions, nothing more...you appear to be anxious to invent a situation that would contradict my opinion, simply put, I slow down when I am in a vulnerable position..such as being overtaken. I do this routinely...how I do it, to what extent and in what measure is dependent on the specific conditions in any given example. If I am giving it the beans, and a car begins to overtake, I stop giving it the beans....and so on, essentially I slow down.
How hard is that to understand?

This is the issue I have; I assess the possible risk and it's likelihood of happening and I take appropriate action. That means that if someone does something utterly dumb and dangerous there is a chance that I'll be toast because I'll have deemed the likelihood as low enough for me not to prepare for it. Now you are saying that you do the same thing and that you don't slow down every time someone overtakes you.

I'm not saying I do the same thing, that is the point...I assess the risk and prepare for it, regardless of the likelihood of it happening.

Could it be, shock horror, that the driver did something utterly dumb and the cyclist either didn't have time to respond, or had not deemed it to be a risk because it was so completely unexpected?

Who said that could not be the case?...however that doesn't mean he has no responsibility for his part in the incident. Perhaps next time a car pulls out of a junction ahead of him and then stops sharply he will realise the risk and act accordingly...perhaps by slowing down?

If the car pulled out into his path, then I have said before, the cyclist can't do much about that, but that doesn't seem to have happened in this case, the driver clearly had time to get out of the junction, see the bank and stop his vehicle before the cyclist ran into the rear of him, slowing when approaching a junction perhaps might have been one precaution he might have taken?

No one is saying that the driver is blameless in all this, far from it...but neither is the cyclist, at least potentially.

Anyway, we clearly have a difference of opinion and perspective here, so I think we shall have to agree to disagree, as we are not really getting anywhere.

 

[altus]

I think the decathlon is harder than riding a bike in circles, hence I vote Daley Thompson
as my most impressive British Olympic champion, I don't care who has the most gold medals.
If you cant see why its dangerous for cyclist`s around Boxhill then I do question your intelligence.
The kids in trailers have no choice, do you get the concept of a bend on a fast road that's narrow, it seems not.
Chris Hoy wants to help catch someone who parked up and was struck by a bike, did he think before he re tweeted?

A fad is any form of behavior that develops among a large population and is collectively followed with enthusiasm for some period, generally as a result of the behavior's being perceived as novel in some way.

 

[[DOD]Asprilla]

I am not a professional cyclist, my average speeds cannot match the 25mph you can do...

Then how do you not get overtaken by many cars on Embankment?

Sorry, I was confused when you said that your decision to slow down was based on accessing road conditions, you've said that you stop pedalling every time you would be overtaken, even on a long straight road and you've also said that you don't always slow when overtaken.

I'm just trying to get some clarity.

Oh, and the article clearly states that the driver got out, apologised for not seeing the cyclist and then walked to the cashpoint.

 

[Castiel]

Then how do you not get overtaken by many cars on Embankment?

I did not say I don't. I said I only occasionally cycle the embankment.

Sorry, I was confused when you said that your decision to slow down was based on accessing road conditions, you've said that you stop pedalling every time you would be overtaken, even on a long straight road and you've also said that you don't always slow when overtaken.

If I have slowed for the first car to overtake (assuming, as the question did earlier that there are more than a few) then it is potentially not necessary to slow for all of them....I don't see how it is confusing exactly...I think it is more that you are trying to twist the context of one reply to fit another....none of these things are mutually exclusive...I slow down when in a vulnerable position, if there are multiple cars, I generally only need to slow to a safer speed once...again this depends on the exact conditions....

I'm just trying to get some clarity.

It appears that you are trying to create a contradiction by design.

Oh, and the article clearly states that the driver got out, apologised for not seeing the cyclist and then walked to the cashpoint.

And? I don't see how that abrogates the cyclist automatically. It just means that the driver should have paid more attention as well....and I did not say he went to the cashpoint first in any case...

 

[[DOD]Asprilla]

It doesn't. I was just correcting your error.

I think your responses are inconsistent and probably evasive.

So you don't slow when overtaken, what you do is ride at a speed appropriate to the conditions. Why didn't you just say that?

 

[Castiel]

It doesn't. I was just correcting your error.

I think your responses are inconsistent and probably evasive.

My responses are honest and entirely consistent with the specific questions (and their context) being asked.

I did not make any error...you appear to have either misread what I wrote about the motorist stopping or assumed something I did not say. I certainly didn't say he even got out of his vehicle, let alone visited the cashpoint prior to the incident.

So you don't slow when overtaken, what you do is ride at a speed appropriate to the conditions. Why didn't you just say that?

Yes I do slow down when overtaken, like I said you appear to ignoring the context and specificity of the examples presented...Once more, for clarity, when overtaken I slow down to an appropriate speed, if multiple vehicles are overtaking me, that doesn't mean I slow down for each one in succession...it simply means that I slow down to enable myself to react to a potential incident for the duration of that period of overtaking....I slow down for single cars, or for multiple cars, I don't (unless necessary) slow down multiple times for multiple cars in one incidence.

I do ride at a speed appropriate to the conditions also (hence slowing down when the condition alter)..I simply don't think that the cyclist in the OP may have done so....

 

[[DOD]Asprilla]

My responses are honest and entirely consistent with the specific questions (and their context) being asked.

I did not make any error...you appear to have either misread what I wrote about the motorist stopping or assumed something I did not say. I certainly didn't say he even got out of his vehicle, let alone visited the cashpoint prior to the incident.

You are correct, I thought you wrote go to the bank, not see the bank. Sorry, my bad.

I disagree with you about your answers. I'm not trying to twist anything, I just think you've been inconsistent in describing your behaviour when riding.

 

[Amp34]

Well its hardly my opinion, its quite well know, even Steve Redgrave has acknowledge his record being beaten:

“Sir Chris Hoy should be rated right at the top of Britain’s sporting pantheon,” Redgrave said. “He is not just a big name in Britain but a major sportsman in global terms. To be winning medals and competing at the highest level for 13 years is a phenomenal achievement.

“That gave him five golds plus the silver that he won all the way back in Sydney in 2000, which is better than my five golds and a bronze,” Redgrave said.

I get that you don't like him though because he is a Cyclist.

Steve Redgrave was said to be britains greatest Olympian, not just because of the 5 gold medals but because he got 5 golds in 5 separate Olympics, being at the top of e international game for at least 16 years. Chris Hoy definitely ranks as second though, closely followed by Pincent.

 

[Castiel]

You are correct, I thought you wrote go to the bank, not see the bank. Sorry, my bad.

I disagree with you about your answers. I'm not trying to twist anything, I just think you've been inconsistent in describing your behaviour when riding.

My behaviour when riding is probably inconsistent on occasion, but I don't think my answers are, maybe I am not explaining clearly enough, or getting bogged down in specific examples...but essentially I think that the cyclist in the OP could possibly have avoided the accident, I don't ride fast enough most of the time, and certainly not in conditions such as in the pictures provided, to have hit that car myself (as long as I was paying attention that is), given what we know about it, but you say you routinely ride at Tour De France average speeds through busy London streets, so clearly we have a different perspective on riding a bike, so therefore a different opinion on what is avoidable and not.

 

[[DOD]Asprilla]

I also think he could possibly have avoided the accident but only in the same way I think all accidents are avoidable.

Generally if I see a car approaching a junction to my left then I'll move right, further into the lane. That should move me further into their field of vision and give me more options to manoeuvre should they pull out.

On a clear straight empty road I wouldn't slow if I was being overtaken; if there was traffic coming the other way I would. If we were approaching heavier traffic, etc then obviously you would slow. There are examples where I would speed up after an overtake, such as approaching a pinch point and I want to discourage further overtakes until after the pinch.

 

[Castiel]

I also think he could possibly have avoided the accident but only in the same way I think all accidents are avoidable.

Generally if I see a car approaching a junction to my left then I'll move right, further into the lane. That should move me further into their field of vision and give me more options to manoeuvre should they pull out.

On a clear straight empty road I wouldn't slow if I was being overtaken; if there was traffic coming the other way I would. If we were approaching heavier traffic, etc then obviously you would slow. There are examples where I would speed up after an overtake, such as approaching a pinch point and I want to discourage further overtakes until after the pinch.

I slow by habit...if approaching a pinch point or parked cars etc, I stick my hand out and move further in the lane, similar to you with junctions as well...I don't generally ride very fast in the first place tbh, I'm just mooching along on my MTB, I suspect you are riding a pro racer.....

 

[SexyGreyFox]

Actually [DOD]Asprilla I can now see where Castiel is coming from.

The other week I was forced to follow a friend who was mooching along on an MTB and we were going that slow there was no chance of ever being left hooked or running into a vehicle. Obviously increase your speed and you increase the risk.

A work colleague who has also cycled for over 1 year was so upset by an incident last week that she wrote about it on our Intranet demanding something to be done.
She said she had turned onto the road and after a few yards of riding on the left side about 1 foot from the kerb a car was aiming straight at her and then it swerved.
I'm reading this thinking what her problem is because I get that nearly every day and then it hits me that she rides so slow that she never has any close calls.
If a car pulls out on her it isn't a problem but if it pulls out on me it is a problem because of the speed I'm doing.
I've now figured out why Castiel is so perfect.

 

[Phantom Shadow]

What do you do about oncoming cars castiel? What if one were to swerve into your lane and hit you head on? How would your awareness protect you from that?

I agree that in many accidents both parties could be partly blamed, usually it involves a dodgy move made by one driver and a lack of reaction from another that result in a collision. But there are some circumstances where no matter how much attention you pay to your surroundings and how defensive you are in your positioning and speed on the road, in some circumstances there is simply nothing you can do.

 

[Castiel]

What do you do about oncoming cars castiel? What if one were to swerve into your lane and hit you head on? How would your awareness protect you from that?

What a daft example to ask. If a car hits me head on then its clearly the drivers fault, may as well ask me what I would do if a 747 landed on top of me on the A36.... No one said that you are responsible for everything that could happen to you, or that you can do something about every possible circumstance, just in the situation described in the OP.

 

[Castiel]

I've now figured out why Castiel is so perfect.

Not perfect by any means, just careful. I also get my fair share of close calls (I'm not that slow, just not 25mph), I just stop in time when it happens. (So far at least)

 

[Phantom Shadow]

But we weren't always discussing what happened in the OP.

We had posed to you the example of someone overtakes you (at some point they will be 1 inch ahead of you, on the other side of the road, even if you slow down as they overtake) and when they are only just in front of you suddenly pull across and perform an emergency stop at the same time.

You said that this would partly be the fault of both drivers, when clearly it would not. My recent question was just taking this to the extreme.