V5C - Former Keepers

TheStarkFactor · 1 Nov 2013 at 21:57

Hey,

Long story short, within three days of buying the car, the engine management light came on, identified the fault as 'rear O2 sensor'. Car also having mild intermittent starting issues.

I tried to reject the car under SOGA, dealer was very apologetic but refused a refund and pushed to allow him the opportunity to fix and resolve all problems.

Spoke to a legal professional in my office who said technically I could reject but if went to court as the dealer is offering to provide a courtesy car and fix all problems then it may come across that I am being unreasonable to demand a refund.

I agreed to allow the dealer to fix the issue and the car is due in to the dealer shortly for the work.

It was only the other day when the V5C arrived and had "three former keepers" on it when I blew my top because it was clearly advertised, at least in my eyes, as having two previous owners/keepers.

Spoke to my legal representative again who said it could technically nullify our contract under the Misrepresentation Act 1976 and is contrary to the OFT Consumer Protection Regulations to mis-describe a vehicle. So I could therefore demand a full refund.

However, as pointed out on this thread, technically the car had two former keepers and a previous owner, it is the way the advert was worded.

One of my criteria when buying the car was two former owners or less. I wouldn't have bought it if it had three or more.

Rybo89 · 1 Nov 2013 at 22:08

Dealer should have said '3 owners' as they would have took the traders slip from the V5C document meaning they are not a registered keeper of the vehicle but have took possession of it from the previous owner (the 3rd owner).

Someone selling private could state 2 previous owners.

Richie · 2 Nov 2013 at 06:56

You were seriously going to reject a used car under SOGA due to a faulty O2 sensor 3 days after you purchased it?

You do realise that, even with the best will in the world, these sensors can become faulty at ANY time. Short of being psychic, how can a dealer reasonably know this is going to happen? :confused:

Although it was a bit off for them to advertise 2 previous owners, bear in mind you were being unreasonable before this came to light.

Trig · 2 Nov 2013 at 09:16

Wouldn't buy a car with more than 3 previous owners?! Why not, the first owner could have driven it like a **** and whatever damage would then make no difference if the other owners wrapped it in cotton wool...

Buckster · 2 Nov 2013 at 10:28

I've been to many dealers looking at 3-5 year old cars (main dealers too) where cars have been advertised as "2" former keepers, even though its actually 3 including the "current" - except the current as far as I am concerned is the dealer - except they don't register the car in their name

so I think advertising cars in these instances as 2 former owners is misleading - they should say 3

Trig · 2 Nov 2013 at 11:16

That's not misleading, that's just lack of understanding the meaning of a word.

If a car has 2 former owners, that makes me the 3rd, and you the 4th.

[TW]Fox · 2 Nov 2013 at 11:30

Trig said:
That's not misleading, that's just lack of understanding the meaning of a word.

No, it's misleading.

If a car has 2 former owners, that makes me the 3rd, and you the 4th.

If you've traded your car in at a garage and bought a new car, you no longer own it. You are therefore not the keeper and are a former keeper.

Trig · 2 Nov 2013 at 11:41

Agree to disagree then.

Personally I don't think it really matters how many owners a car has had, any of the ones before you could have ruined or not looked after it properly...

[TW]Fox · 2 Nov 2013 at 11:47

Trig said:
Agree to disagree then.

How can you possibly disagree? I don't understand!

There is no misunderstanding as to the defintion of the word former:

1.
preceding in time; prior or earlier: during a former stage in the proceedings.

When you sell a car you no longer own it. The end :confused:

If you were talking about a private sale you would be totally right - if I came to see your car, your V5 would correctly say 2 former keepers, and you are the current keeper and I would be the 4th. But if you've sold your car to a motor trader, you are no longer the current keeper..

Under normal circumstances when you sell a car and fill out the V5 a new V5 is generated reflecting the fact that from the date you sold it, you are no longer its keeper and are therefore included in the former keepers count.

The reason why dealers can pull this little trick is because when a car is sold into the motor trade, the new V5 isn't generated until its new owner purchases the car. This doesn't mean that whilst the car is sat at the dealer the guy who traded it in is still the keeper. He's not. It's just had not a new V5 issued yet.

Everyone selling a car knows this. The dealer KNOWS the only V5 that matters - the one the new buyer will be issued with - will have one more previous keeper on it than it did when the last owner had it.

They take advantage of being able to blag about it in order to advertise a lower number of keepers.

Trig · 2 Nov 2013 at 11:52

Trader said it had 2 former owners.

Dave
Bob
Trader, so to the trader it's 2 former, as in before him, but when the trader got the car he should have let the DVLA know that it had changed hands, so on paper by the time the guy on here buys it it'll show him as the 4th owner...

[TW]Fox · 2 Nov 2013 at 11:54

Trig said:
Trader said it had 2 former owners.

Which is wrong, as it had 3 former owners - the trader purchased it from owner 3.

Dave
Bob
Trader

This is the bit that's wrong - traders do not show as keepers on the V5.

Therefore it's..

Somebody Else
Dave
Bob
Trader who isn't a keeper
You

Making you the 4th and meaning when the trader had it he knew it had had 3 owners prior to him taking it into stock.

Trig · 2 Nov 2013 at 12:05

Its dishonest, yes, don't think its misleading though..

[TW]Fox · 2 Nov 2013 at 12:08

The car sat on that dealers forecourt with 'Previous keepers: 2' on its old V5 has had 3 previous keepers. This is undisputable fact.

The two previous keepers mentioned on the V5 and the guy who traded it in, who is also a previous keeper.

2 people who are previous keepers + 1 previous keeper who traded it in = 3 previous keepers

The only thing that says '2 previous keepers' is the old, out of date V5 that the new buyer should never really see anyway. A correct V5 showing the fact is issued when the new buyer purchases the car.

Otherwise what about newer cars? There are many cars for sale with '0' as the previous keepers number because they've had 1 owner from new. But that 1 owner from new isn't the keeper anymore, is he?

Trig · 2 Nov 2013 at 16:55

So in this case yes, the traders a lying **** bag lol

Skeeter · 2 Nov 2013 at 20:54

Does the V5 state the name of the previous keeper? I can't remember.

Adam · 2 Nov 2013 at 21:04

Skeeter said:
Does the V5 state the name of the previous keeper? I can't remember.

Yes I believe it does.

Skeeter · 2 Nov 2013 at 21:05

I wonder what it says in this case?

TheStarkFactor · 2 Nov 2013 at 21:36

Hey,

The V5C states three former keepers and the previous keeper is not the dealer and is obviously the individual who owned the car prior to myself.

Richie · 3 Nov 2013 at 08:44

When a car is bought by a dealer (part exchange or bought at auction etc), the car is "put into trade" but they are not regarded as being a new keeper.

Did the dealer knowingly and deliberately mislead people by stating the wrong number of keepers or did the person putting the details on the advert just pull the info from the V5 blindly and without thinking? Who knows.

TBH, anyone that is really bothered about these things when buying the car should ask to see the V5 and MOT or even just confirm with the dealer by asking the question before buying the car rather than trying to solely blame the dealer.

People generally dont like car sales people and they think they are always trying to shaft them so, with this opinion, why people blindly go in and dont ask relevant questions is beyond me :confused:

TheStarkFactor · 3 Nov 2013 at 10:26

Richie said:
When a car is bought by a dealer (part exchange or bought at auction etc), the car is "put into trade" but they are not regarded as being a new keeper.

Did the dealer knowingly and deliberately mislead people by stating the wrong number of keepers or did the person putting the details on the advert just pull the info from the V5 blindly and without thinking? Who knows.

TBH, anyone that is really bothered about these things when buying the car should ask to see the V5 and MOT or even just confirm with the dealer by asking the question before buying the car rather than trying to solely blame the dealer.

People generally dont like car sales people and they think they are always trying to shaft them so, with this opinion, why people blindly go in and dont ask relevant questions is beyond me

The dealer and sales person in question is also the owner of the business.

They have 50 cars on their forecourt and have been established for over five years.

When I spoke to the dealer about the issue, I was told that it is completely normal and fair to state "two former keepers" on the advert because that is what is on the V5C.

I should have asked at the time of sale regarding the keepers, but we are all human and make minor mistakes. I wrongly assumed the advert was correct.

I guess its irrelevant now anyway as I won't be pursuing the matter with the dealer.