Looking to replace my AV Amp

That's a big problem. Because until you "get" what it is that the rest of us are listening for then you'll never understand what we are describing. This isn't an attempt at being evasive. This is about establishing some common experience. Without that, then people like you and people like us have no common ground for discussion. The difference is that we've all been where you are now. So we understand your perspective. But you can't understand ours.

If you could actually perceive a difference in the dubious areas where these differences are claimed then it could be demonstrated quite easily in a double blind test...

Otherwise its just pretentious 'golden ears' nonsense... Fine if you're happy to treat this stuff as magic black boxes/components, reach consensus with other like minded people while you 'demo' the magical black box in an uncontrolled sighted test... pretend all the other factors you're presented with don't have an impact etc...

In reality the emperor has no clothes...
 
I've got other things to do, so I'm just going to address one final point and then repeat my offer...

you seem to be supporting myths/beliefs in this thread rather than questioning them
Only as far as that in my experience, some cables in the right system do seem to make a difference. That's not the same as saying that all cables make a difference. Nor is it the same as saying that cables make a difference in every system. This is an area where I do support the physics argument about adequacy; I know from my own experiences installing customer's Hi-Fi, AV and multiroom audio systems that poor cables throttle system performance. I also know that most AV and multiroom customers won't be able to tell the difference between speaker cables.

If I seem to support the "myths/beliefs" it's on a rather more selective basis from personal experience. I'll evaluate each product from the starting point as a skeptic. In this way I am questioning my beliefs, forming opinions and modifying my standpoint. I see nothing wrong then in expressing my opinions based on what I have heard and experienced.


The offer is simple. Come and listen. That's it. Just a simple opportunity to bring your ears and a blindfold if you wish ;) and hear some of the equipment hooked up with cables and blocks and tables and to test your perceptions.
 
you're not really evaluating anything from a skeptical position by dismissing blind testing and performing a sighted, uncontrolled, subjective evaluation in some demo room...

why not see if Randi still has a million offer if you truly believe in this nonsense
 
It's not a matter of opinion, your "opinion" isn't informed. A power cable or extension block isn't going to change how your audio sounds.

It just isn't, it has no part in the audio processing chain the same way my monitors' power bricks don't influence the image quality on my screen.

As I said before, you're making extraordinary claims, claims that are in stark contrast to how physics work, so it's up to you to prove it's true, which you can't.

Instead you just go on the attack and tell people to be quiet if they haven't experienced it, which goes to undermine the validity of your "opinions" even more.

Your opinion is "informed" because ? .... you have PhD in electronics and human biology? .... So what qualifies you to know what other people here or perceive?

I don't make any extraordinary claims, I'm often a sceptic when it comes to many upgrades, hence I double checked my view on the cables I had.... finding little or only subtle difference that wasn't definitive they we worth more to sell on than keep. But then my system uses quite advanced power supplies, switch mode by design and seem less susceptible to main board issues.

A point you seem to have missed in your knowledge of physics is the importance of the power supply in an audio product. The power out of the wall and the electronics in the box working with it. The view therefor is mains or power lead can contribute to the performance of the power supply.

For sure there are many variables in that assumption and results would depend on a problem being present in the supply that needs fixing. i.e. interference of some type.
So any blanket claim that a lead could or would make a difference becomes a complicated mix of possibles and impossibles..... So do they make difference, often not in my experience, they I've only sampled a small sample set, could they in theory, possibly.

So the question still goes unanswered as to what language people should you to describe sound and any effect they hear. ... That's before we get anywhere near a common understanding of what musicality is :eek:

If you want a method to listen and evaluate music, then use the TuneDem (method devised by Linn).... A way of accessing the "musical" performance of a system. Sorry it doesn't use blindfolds.... so you need an open mind as well as open eyes.
 
I don't make any extraordinary claims,

[...]

A point you seem to have missed in your knowledge of physics is the importance of the power supply in an audio product. The power out of the wall and the electronics in the box working with it. The view therefor is mains or power lead can contribute to the performance of the power supply.

:confused:

Credulous much...
 
The only differences you'll get with a power lead is a broken one not powering your amp/equipment.

I don't need to have PHD in anything to know this. The simplest most straight forward way to prove this is to open an amp and inspect the internal wiring used for the power delivery and between PCBs.

They don't use magic fairy-dust infused wires inside, so even if your magic mains leads and extension blocks were able to do what you claim, they wouldn't do anything in practice, because the electric feed hits bog standard copper wires as soon as it comes into the amp, and that's completely ignoring what your power outlets are hooked up with, which is plain old 2.5mm² cross sectional solid core copper wire.

So what you think your magic mains cables are doing, I don't know, but it has to be extraordinary for it to be changing how your audio sounds.

Additionally, sure, the cable will effect the performance of the power supply in the amp, in terms of supplying enough. The performance will be measured in "is it working properly", and if the cable is inadequate, which properly rated IEC C14 cables are fully adequate (being rated for 10 amps) then there won't be a performance difference between the cables.

If an amp is trying to pull more current than your mains lead can handle, then something goes pop, not your sound quality decreases, though it's not exactly reasonable in the first place for an amp to require more than 10 amps.

You only need a qualification in basic common sense to understand that if you're hearing tonal differences between to power cables, that you're hearing things (pun intended).

So tell me more about how unqualified I am to pass comment because I don't believe in the extraordinary claims you are making.

Oh and about the language used, I'm not trying to dictate what language should be used, as I said, I merely find it amusing that the way audiophiles describe sound is often using terminology that is difficult to quantify. Faux eloquence to imply something is happening that is bigger than what is really happening.
 
Credulous..... certainly not.

Neither am I a cable fan, but as its your pet hate and it seems most things audio, I've followed the topic. Mainly to make a point that you pair have a simplistic generalised overview that doesn't go to explain how things work or don't.

I assume the you can review the specifications of few different Hi-Fi system and tell which one sounds the best ?..... or are we at the point where all Hi-Fi sounds the same anyway ?
It seem we have discount cables and scoffed at the idea that power supply in an audio product are import, I mean if it converted 230~240volt AC to 12/24volt DC then job done hey..nothing more difficult then that ?

Well I'm sure you would have a lot to say about my latest upgrade, changing the AC motor in my Turntable to a DC one with new matching external power supply :

Of coarse I won't describe how the sound improved, for fear use some incorrect descriptive words !!!
 
i use 10mm solid core on my av amp. It game it 5 times more musicality and 12.7 times more sparkle.


true story. I cant prove it, mind, so you'll just have to trust me!
 
i use 10mm solid core on my av amp. It game it 5 times more musicality and 12.7 times more sparkle.

Don't you mean 1.0mm :confused:

You'd have a job wiring solid core cable one centimetre thick into the back of an AV amp as well as trying to hide it under the carpet.

I use 1.0mm T&E myself, when I wired up my HC back in the mid-late 80's I was skint after buying the hardware & dad had a roll spare, so I used that. Besides, all the hi-fi mags were raving about it at the time & I was naive enough at the time to believe them. :p
 
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Ring main cable is 2.5mm Sq.... so 10mm would be "welding cable" ;)

Well would help the music flow better .... :p

Were they sighted or double blind scores..... it's important you know ......
 

:confused::confused::confused: OK its 1.5mm2 lighting cable to be pedantic (for speaker wire fergawdssake) :p Power is a 2 pin kettle lead provided with the receiver. I can't be arsed anymore to do those kind of tweaks, last tweak I did to my old stereo setup was to buy MK mains plugs to power each piece of hardware. Expensive to do a CD player, amp, tape, radio & vinyl when you were 17 & on £40 a week, plugs back then were £2 each IIRC. :(

no, it's 10mm2 mains cable. You know, for showers and electric cookers and stuff :p

That's still pretty thick cable to be wiring up to a AV Receiver to power it. I'd be impressed to see how you wired the mains plug. :D
 
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Sure, sound processing will make a difference, though most of it is still somewhat controllable. My point was more that the differences between amps or AV receivers is greatly exaggerated.

I'm not sure how the sound processing makes the whole cable argument redundant though, people still claim their magic cables influences the "musicality" of their sound system.

Differences between av receivers are rather obvious, my point was that the guy asked about what amp to get and you've gone off on something of a tangent. If i ask what car to buy and someone starts going off about their favourite f1 race of all time its redundant to what i asked, see?
 
https://web.archive.org/web/20131023041152/http://sound.westhost.com/cables.htm

Difficult Loads
While it is true that reasonable quality twin cables (figure eight or zip cord) are adequate for nominal 8 ohm loads over short distances, there are a number of popular loudspeakers that are anything but nominal at high frequencies.

Two that a reader advised me about are the AR11 and the Quad ESL (old model). Both of these drop below 2 ohms in the treble frequencies. The AR bottoming out at 5kHz and the Quad at 18Khz (although anything from 15kHz to 18kHz is common). The dips are fairly sharp and so the load impedance is highly capacitive on the way down and inductive on the way up. The frequencies are high enough to not worry good amplifiers but what about the response at these dip frequencies?

Twin wire cables all have significant inductance which increases in proportion to length. With 10 amp rated twin flex over only 5 metres the response was down by 2.5 dB into one Quad ESL at 18 Khz, and 3.5 dB into the other speaker which had 8 metres. This was audible and unacceptable.

The only way to reduce cable linear inductance is to make the two wires talk to each other. Running in close parallel is a start, tight twisting is better but only by using multiple wires for each and interweaving can you really get the inductance down. Several cable makers have done this and sell them as low impedance cables, which is exactly what they are. There are several different cables that use this method, and twin coaxial cable is also used to achieve a similar result.

One construction uses two groups of 72 strands of enamelled wire plaited around a solid plastic core. Using these cables with difficult loads, the droop at either 5 or 18 kHz disappeared and the sound was distinctly better. There would be virtually no other way to solve the problem short of mono amplifiers sited next to each loudspeaker.

One (potentially major) drawback ocurs if you own certain amplifiers that are unstable with capacitive loads. Typical multiple twisted pair cable has about 9nF per metre of capacitance with little resistance or inductance, which causes many amplifiers to go into parasitic oscillation. The fix is simple, wind twelve turns of wire around a pen and put it in series with the beginning of the cable. This tiny coil has far less inductance than even one metre of twin flex. The other alternative is to connect a 10 ohm resistor and 100nF capacitor in series, and connect this Zobel network at the speaker end of the cable. Wiring should be kept very short.

This possible issue with speaker cables is one of very few that makes some sense from a technical perspective. There is sufficient evidence from my own measurements and those of many writers that there are indeed some detectable (and measurable) differences. With this in mind, and wanting to provide all the information I can, I have included this information - and this is the one area where properly sized and well made cables really does make a difference. If you own speakers that present a highly capacitive load, or have deep "notches" in the impedance curve, I would take this information seriously.

Having a sufficiently thick twin core cable sometimes just isnt enough. That's the truth, something that gets ignored by the skeptics. I dont know why.
 
Having a sufficiently thick twin core cable sometimes just isnt enough. That's the truth, something that gets ignored by the skeptics. I dont know why.

edit - he's highlighted an area where there might be a difference, with a few speakers... the solutions suggested then include cat5 and mains cable... its hardly a ringing endorsement of expensive speaker cables
 
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