SNP Referendum Nonsense

[Werewolf]

I think people are wasting valuable effort here.

Scotland voting indépendance would be totally crazy. Some of the comments that people on the 'Yes' campaign have come out with scare the hell out of me. A good, paraphrased example was:

<Yes Man> Things like the BBC, we'll take ownership of all of the assets in Scotland, turn it into the SBC, and get the BBC material broadcast in Scotland with an agreement
<Interviewer>....so you'll pay for the programmes, things like Dr Who etc aren't free to make
<Yes Man> We'll come to an agreement, we can offer them programmes too !
<Interviewer>.....so you'll pay....?
<Yes Man> We'll come to an agreement, its what companies do

The whole thing is based on basically being gifted and getting 'best case' out of every deal. I think the harsh reality is, it would be almost impossible to go independent, irrespective of a yes majority. You'd never be able to fund setting up your own Driving Licence/Passport/Currency/Broadcasting/etc... People won't line up to just give you stuff, you'll have to pay for it.

Aye I saw something like that and my immediate thought was, a lot of the BBC's content isn't up to the BBC to sell - these days much of it is commissioned by the BBC for viewing in the UK, the BBC don't have the rights to decide how it's dealt with outside the UK, unless BBC:WW pays the market rate for the rights, then sells them, again at market rate.
In terms of sharing content it would be extremely one sided in Scotlands favour, and quite difficult from a rights point of view (for example Sky could just as easily end up with the rights to show stuff, is as is legally and contractually required the BBC/BBC:WW sell the rights to the highest bidder...).

It's simple, very basic mistakes like that which make me question how much the independence campaign and supporters know about what they're talking about.

 

[Superficial]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-25132026

The Spanish prime minister has suggested that an independent Scotland would have to apply to become a member of the EU from the outside.

Mariano Rajoy said that if a "region" opted to leave a member state, then it would "remain outside the European Union".

It would then require the agreement of all 28 EU members before it was allowed to join, he said.

The Scottish government aims to negotiate entry from within the EU.

This would be done in the 18 months between a Yes vote and formal secession from the UK, it has said.

Continue reading the main story
“
Start Quote
We have detailed a process which will see Scotland negotiate its position as an independent member of the European Union from within”
End Quote
Scottish government spokesman

Speaking at a media conference during a summit with French president Francois Hollande, Mr Rajoy said: "I do not know the White Paper presented by the Scottish president (sic).

"I would like that the consequences of that secession be presented with realism to Scots.

"Citizens have the right to be well informed and particularly when it's about taking decisions like this one.

"I respect all the decisions taken by the British, but I know for sure that a region that would separate from a member state of the European Union would remain outside the European Union and that should be known by the Scots and the rest of the European citizens".

His stance appeared to echo the official position of the European Union.

Worth noting though that this does not technically go against Spanish official line (that they would not actually block Scotland from entry to the EU) but it does proceed counter to Salmonds argument that negotiation would be from within the EU by default as the article says.

 

[Angilion]

But would mean setting up multiple tiers of bureaucracy from scratch.

Personally, anything that means Scotland can't blame "it" on the English any more is a good thing.

Scotland leaving the union would do absolutely nothing to change that. Scots who blame "the English" for everything would just carry on doing so. Why wouldn't they? They blame people alive today for things that happened long before they were born. They blame people alive today for things that never happened at all. They ignore (or are ignorant of) inconvenient facts like Scottish invasions of England, "English" armies that contained more Scots than English, etc. Nationalist prejudices are irrational, so they don't need a reason and they won't be removed by independence. Some of the details might change (e.g. they'll claim that England defrauded Scotland and stole Scottish things in the split) but the basic claim will remain the same - blame the English for everything. It's always useful in that kind of politics to blame "them". There doesn't have to be a reason and it doesn't have to make any sense. Group politics is simple - we are good and they are bad, therefore everything imperfect is their fault.

 

[Angilion]

It is a shame that the "NO" parties are so negative; Though TBH I don't really see the point if they intend to keep the pound and the monarchy???

More power for Salmond, as far as I can tell.

Are they still claiming that Scottish oil and gas reserves go as far south as Sussex? I would have laughed at that one if it wasn't a serious issue.

 

[Angilion]

It's an existing member, and the EU doesn't have the power to force a nation to join the prerequisite mechanisms.

Scotland is not an existing member of the EU. The UK is an existing member of the EU. The whole point of this idea is for Scotland to not be part of the UK, remember? The EU doesn't have the power to force a nation to join the prerquisite mechanisms, but it does have the power to reject a membership application from a country that won't do so.

I was going to say that the Scottish "independence" campaign (which isn't actually after independence) is based on having your cake and eating it, but that's not a strong enough way to phrase it. It's about having your cake and eating it and sharing lembas with the elves before riding dragons. Everyone+dog is not going to arrange the EU and everything else for Scotland's convenience. Scotland does not have enough power to sway the EU. It would be a small country with a small population and a small economy. It wouldn't have much influence in the EU, let alone be able to dictate terms to it.

Maybe that's the point - when the happy happy joy joy promises fail to come true, the people who make them can carry on blaming other people (especially the English, obviously) and still get votes.

 

[Angilion]

[..]
I see no real legitimate reason for Scotland to be treated like an international pariah state as many seem to infer.

Feel free to point out who is saying that Scotland would be treated like an international pariah state.

Making things up and falsely attributing them to people who disagree with you is not a sign of having a good argument.

People are saying that a seperate country of Scotland would be treated like a seperate country.

 

[Conanius]

Aye I saw something like that and my immediate thought was, a lot of the BBC's content isn't up to the BBC to sell - these days much of it is commissioned by the BBC for viewing in the UK, the BBC don't have the rights to decide how it's dealt with outside the UK, unless BBC:WW pays the market rate for the rights, then sells them, again at market rate.
In terms of sharing content it would be extremely one sided in Scotlands favour, and quite difficult from a rights point of view (for example Sky could just as easily end up with the rights to show stuff, is as is legally and contractually required the BBC/BBC:WW sell the rights to the highest bidder...).

It's simple, very basic mistakes like that which make me question how much the independence campaign and supporters know about what they're talking about.

You've summed my point up perfectly.

The numbers and assumptions don't just fail to add up, you think they are an answer to a totally different question.

I love the fact that they have pride and a desire for identity, but the whole thing is a total pipedream. All the scots I know are horrified about the whole thing, and honestly... Rather embarrassed.

 

[K-2]

You've summed my point up perfectly.

The numbers and assumptions don't just fail to add up, you think they are an answer to a totally different question.

I love the fact that they have pride and a desire for identity, but the whole thing is a total pipedream. All the scots I know are horrified about the whole thing, and honestly... Rather embarrassed.

What are they embarrassed about exactly? The fact their country is attempting to run its own affairs? God forbid! Your Scottish friends are most likely embarrassed because they, like you, have misunderstood what the independence movement is about.

You talk about a desire for identity and national pride but strangely, you only hear this type of rhetoric from the No Campaign. I wonder why...

 

[scorza]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-25132026



Worth noting though that this does not technically go against Spanish official line (that they would not actually block Scotland from entry to the EU) but it does proceed counter to Salmonds argument that negotiation would be from within the EU by default as the article says.

Yeah problem is I don't think you can trust anything the Spanish PM says on this subject. He's creating FUD for his own independence problems of the Basque region and Catalonia. Spain are totally screwed without Catalonia lol.

 

[Columbo]

What are they embarrassed about exactly? The fact their country is attempting to run its own affairs? God forbid! Your Scottish friends are most likely embarrassed because they, like you, have misunderstood what the independence movement is about.

You talk about a desire for identity and national pride but strangely, you only hear this type of rhetoric from the No Campaign. I wonder why...

Independence in itself is not a pipe dream, the SNP's mechanism for doing so however is.

It's based on assumptions that are not guaranteed and not in law, they have not entered negotiations on any of it yet and are starting from a position of no chips with which to bargain.
If had Salmond got agreements in place for a lot of this stuff already then the Yes campaign would be far far stronger in that he could pretty much guarantee to deliver the spine of what he's promising.

At this point though he cannot deliver anything other than a 'well perhaps' while at the same time getting messages to the contrary from the EU, Westminster and even quite a decent chunk of the Scottish public.

It's simply not a credible plan.

 

[the_r_sole]

Independence in itself is not a pipe dream, the SNP's mechanism for doing so however is.

It's based on assumptions that are not guaranteed and not in law, they have not entered negotiations on any of it yet and are starting from a position of no chips with which to bargain.
If had Salmond got agreements in place for a lot of this stuff already then the Yes campaign would be far far stronger in that he could pretty much guarantee to deliver the spine of what he's promising.

At this point though he cannot deliver anything other than a 'well perhaps' while at the same time getting messages to the contrary from the EU, Westminster and even quite a decent chunk of the Scottish public.

It's simply not a credible plan.

if that is the argument then independence will never happen because no one will negotiate terms before the people decide if they want to become independent at all, why do you think the uk government are refusing to give any definite answers to anything? It's because they can't - the same as the snp are making assumptions, so are the other sides, no one is saying anything with any definite outcome but it seems that a lot of no voters (or people without a vote) are happy to take one side as a definite and discount the other, whereas those in favour are looking at possibilities

 

[covenantuk]

That statement from Spain is very significant.

Joining the EU requires the consent of EVERY member of the EU. Spain is resisting secession bids from both Catalonia and the Basque region and would at the very least delay agreeing to Scotland having an easy ride back in to the EU, if not outright blocking it or placing tough conditions (such as compulsory takeup of the Euro).

These are not "scare tactics by a No campaign" they are political realities.

 

[Amp34]

The only people who can find out is Westminster and they refuse to ask.

Again, you can't be forced to join the Euro.

Anyway, caught this earlier

With friends like these..

So there is no evidence to support your assertions earlier in the thread.

 

[Flukester]

hah, UK should veto Scotland joining EU, payback for being whiners

Just my humble opinion....

The grass is not greener on the other side, there are only 5mill odd Scots, doesn't even really count as a country in my book, and never will perform like one.

 

[Amp34]

Yeah problem is I don't think you can trust anything the Spanish PM says on this subject. He's creating FUD for his own independence problems of the Basque region and Catalonia. Spain are totally screwed without Catalonia lol.

However the point is the Spanish government would have to agree to allow Scotland directly into the UK ( even salmond agrees in his white paper). The prime minister stating they won't do that suggests they will use a veto (for the very reasons you state). Big problem for any Scottish easy EU entry.

 

[scorza]

However the point is the Spanish government would have to agree to allow Scotland directly into the UK ( even salmond agrees in his white paper). The prime minister stating they won't do that suggests they will use a veto (for the very reasons you state). Big problem for any Scottish easy EU entry.

The Spanish PM didn't threaten to use a veto. To me it's unthinkable that the EU wouldn't let Scotland into the EU - Scotland is already in the EU and for sure a treaty would need amending and that needs agreement from all 28 members but I think it's highly unlikely that they'd disrespect the wishes of the Scots people.

 

[platypus]

No ones the position re automatic entry to the EU, but I certainly wouldn't trust the Spanish PM.

 

[grumpysculler]

hah, UK should veto Scotland joining EU, payback for being whiners

And there is a real risk that the UK may just do something like that.

The UK Govt is obliged to respect the vote for independence, but not any particular terms. In any negotiations, the UK govt's primary objective must be to get the best deal for rUK. Attaching strings to EU or NATO membership may just be one way of doing that.

Well you can't join NATO unless you agree to lease Faslane as it is, for the next 100 years. And by the way we won't let you join the EU unless you abandon this sterling zone idea and agree to our NATO terms.

The SNP fail to understand international politics and every group they have to deal with will want something from them. The NATO countries will only agree if they get something in exchange - Scotland can't really exert much control over the GIUK gap, so that doesn't really factor into it despite what the SNP say. The 28 EU nations will only agree if they can get something out of it. A nice warm fuzzy feeling because they did the right thing for us Scots doesn't really count.

 

[covenantuk]

The Spanish PM didn't threaten to use a veto. To me it's unthinkable that the EU wouldn't let Scotland into the EU - Scotland is already in the EU and for sure a treaty would need amending and that needs agreement from all 28 members but I think it's highly unlikely that they'd disrespect the wishes of the Scots people.

Scotland is not in the EU. The UK is. Look at the treaty. You're rehashing old ground - the president of the EU has stated in unambiguous terms that Scotland would need to apply for membership.

Actually it's highly likely that the member countries would look after their own interest WAY before worrying about what Scotland wanted. that's what politics is about.
Spain don't care about Scotland, they care about not giving a precedent to Catalonia, which as already mentioned produces a vast proportion of Spain's wealth.

The Spanish PM's statement is as close as you'll get to saying "we'll make life hard for Scotland until the sentiment in Catalonia calms down". It's not the only place either - Belgium is unlikely to want it to seem too easy to secede, given the push from Walloons and Flemish to split.

 

[jas72]

Why can't Newcastle be ruled by a parliament made up of Labour given that they voted Labour at the national elections?

Was Newcastle even a recognised sovereign nation with it's own royalty, legal system, and monetary system and parliament?

All of which are form the basis for a nation.

Here's some rolleyes

I see the Spanish Prime minister is also confused between the two definitions but he really shouldn't be as Scotland has been a nation far longer than his country (15th C.)