Nelson Mandela has died

krooton said:
As a South African who is fully aware of his history, I still think he was a great man, who did more than enough good to atone for the bad things he did in his youth, even if it wasn't a direct apology as some people seem to be baying for.

I was there, Apartheid was ****ed up, he did what he had to do and many people paid the price, but what he accomplished after all of that (keep in mind he was imprisoned for 28 years) was groundbreaking for the country.

Better a man to have done terrible things, but also great ones, than a man who did nothing at all.

RIP Madibadela.
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Bravo and well said.
 
He helped bring about the end of apartheid but by his own admission he's no saint and shouldn't be regarded as such.

He was a terrorist and if you think the end justifies the means then you're agreeing with terrorism as a concept thus legitimising organisations such as the IRA and Al Qaeda.
 
covenantuk said:
He helped bring about the end of apartheid but by his own admission he's no saint and shouldn't be regarded as such.

He was a terrorist and if you think the end justifies the means then you're agreeing with terrorism as a concept thus legitimising organisations such as the IRA and Al Qaeda.
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I think the obituary in the Guardian is fair, it talks about his childhood, to his path to law, to how he got involved witht he ANC to be the head of MK, even his refusal to denounce violence in 1985 to this marriages, the death of his sons and even inexperienced in actual life in office and fund raising.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/05/nelson-mandela-obituary
 
After a long battle with declining health South Africa's black president died last night surrounded by family in Johannesburg. He was jailed for 27 years during some of the darkest days for Africa, showing that restraint from violence could make a huge impact on the watching world. His efforts ended the apartheid in South Africa many years before some US states followed suit. You walked the long walk Nelson, Rest in Peace
 
covenantuk said:
He helped bring about the end of apartheid but by his own admission he's no saint and shouldn't be regarded as such.

He was a terrorist and if you think the end justifies the means then you're agreeing with terrorism as a concept thus legitimising organisations such as the IRA and Al Qaeda.
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I think you also have to look at the cause, it's one thing to commit terrorism to garner additional political or military power from the norm - another to break free of what is essentially enforced second class citizenry.
 
It's pretty funny. "White nationalist who uses terrorism and violence to install a state which economically favours whites over blacks" would be universally renounced. BNP is pretty much hated in all circles (Outside of the BNP :D). Yet people all speak of Mr Mandela's "greatness". Humans are hilarious.
 
krooton said:
Better a man to have done terrible things, but also great ones, than a man who did nothing at all.
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If I'm reading this right, you are saying it's good to have done terrible things if you do really good things too :confused: I think we'd be better off with a world of people who do nothing at all in that case!
 
I love all the cause justifies the means people. Pretty sure ghandi face serious oppression and didn't turn to violence to solve it. The man was a savage, the use of violence to force your point shows a man of no substance.
End of the day he was a terrorist, the only difference between him and osma bin Laden or Jerry adams is the fact he had the western media on his side.
 
G-MAN2004 said:
:confused:

Completely disagree with this.
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Life's a wonderfully subjective box of chocolates. :D

He at least did time, when's Blair going to get his punishment for the whole WMD bullcrap?

Churchill also was a catalyst for many deaths in the name of his country, I don't see people poo-pooing him so much.

Yes, some people are painting Mandela to be a saint, which he by his own admission was not, but I'm also not one of those people.
 
Zodar said:
With that logic surely Hitler was a truly great man? He did a lot for the GERMAN people, well, until he went and started a war that is.
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Godwinned! :D

Hitler's bad list FAR FAR FAAAAAR outweighs his good, so nice strawman dawg.
 
Abraxaz1 said:
I love all the cause justifies the means people. Pretty sure ghandi face serious oppression and didn't turn to violence to solve it. The man was a savage, the use of violence to force your point shows a man of no substance.
End of the day he was a terrorist, the only difference between him and osma bin Laden or Jerry adams is the fact he had the western media on his side.
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Absolutely. The people applauding him make me sick.
 
Wasn't he a terrorist & murderer?
Spoke to a guy at work who's from South Africa & he told be mandela & his misses murdered innocent woman & children due to being a terrorist...

So why are we mourning him - Will we mourn gerry adams when he's gone?
 
krooton said:
As a South African who is fully aware of his history, I still think he was a great man, who did more than enough good to atone for the bad things he did in his youth, even if it wasn't a direct apology as some people seem to be baying for.

I was there, Apartheid was ****ed up, he did what he had to do and many people paid the price, but what he accomplished after all of that (keep in mind he was imprisoned for 28 years) was groundbreaking for the country.

Better a man to have done terrible things, but also great ones, than a man who did nothing at all.

RIP Madibadela.
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Well said.

Having recently visited South Africa, he achieved great things for this country even if in his younger years he was no saint.

I don't think a lot of the people here realise what Apartheid was like.
 
Frightful Boar said:
Absolutely. The people applauding him make me sick.
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I'm currently residing in Sweden - a country that brands the Swedish Democrats as a vile and racist party. Now, do not confuse SD with for instance the BNP, or in Sweden, SvP (which is more of an actually racist party), or any of the actual nationalist racist organisations here. Essentially SD wishes to bring swedish immigrantion more in line with that of other european countries, as Sweden's immigration policy has failed massively during the past decades. I doubt anyone would claim that either the Tories or Labour are racist, and SD are honestly more like Labour that anything else.

Currently the praises to Mandela are EVERYWHERE in Sweden, without even a hint of criticism. It is rather funny that the media who brands a party who simply acts as most mainstream european parties do as vile racists, while they universally raise to the skies a man who used terrorism to bring about yet another institutionally racist system to the world.

Apartheid bad, Black Economic Empowerment good I suppose.
 
krooton said:
Life's a wonderfully subjective box of chocolates. :D

He at least did time, when's Blair going to get his punishment for the whole WMD bullcrap?

Churchill also was a catalyst for many deaths in the name of his country, I don't see people poo-pooing him so much.

Yes, some people are painting Mandela to be a saint, which he by his own admission was not, but I'm also not one of those people.
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I think the people that paint him as a saint know very little about the man. On the whole I've found his obituaries to be very even handed in that respect and have not shied away from some of the things he did as a younger man.
 
Frightful Boar said:
Absolutely. The people applauding him make me sick.
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Out of curiosity, could you explain the moral difference between a military general who uses violence which results in the death of civilians to achieve a given objective & a terrorist who uses violence which results in a the death of civilians to achieve a given objective?.

Surely to determine the morality of each, you would need to identify the underlines reasons behind the use of violence?.

Not that it permits violence, one could just as easily argue - terrorism is the end result of a failed society, in this case South Africa failed it's population which in turn resorted to terrorism.
 
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