Nelson Mandela has died

Raymond Lin said:
BBC Obituary.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-10773745

I am not an historian but what began as a peaceful organisation (ANC) only went underground and with it, violence, because the government made its party illegal.

He then served 27 years in prison for his crime which when freed, spent the rest of his days for peace for the betterment of his people.

These days South Africa is a democracy, and whatever he did to get his country there, clearly even his people think he did right, who are we to judge as outsiders? Besides the point that history will remember him for the good more than the bad.
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This sums it up for me. Yes he did terrible things and no good is going right those wrongs but ultimately he made the world a better place.

Freefaller said:
Whether you admire Obama or not, his tribute was perfect. For whatever his flaws as a leader, he is a fantastic wordsmith.

Whether you agree with how Mandela did it or not, he changed the world, IMO, for the better, sure, there was collateral, as there is during all times of strife and desperation. I don't think he's a saint, but at the same time, he picked up the pieces he created, and made something better as a result. Takes a lot of man to accept one's flaws and try and improve on it.

Either the entire world's population is under a mass delusion, or he really did affect the whole world in a positive way - I'm likely to believe that he did more good than harm.

What I don't want to hear, is vitriolic messages of hate. There is no need for that, and if you feel that strongly about it, kindly post in a more rational way, or don't bother posting. Posting disagreements is fine (we're all allowed opinions) but being purposely antagonistic and vicious is not on. (Not aimed at anyone, just airing my feelings on the subject.)
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Well said.

Mandela should not be taken as a saint, he wasn't. The attrocities should not be forgotten but we should also never forget how the world was and what it has become due to his actions. Mandela made the world a better place and he should be applauded for that.
 
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Frightful Boar said:
The stupidest thing I've ever read.
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Would he have achieved what he had without such actions then? Hard for any of us to judge or say isnt it really. Not trying to sound stupid but I dont think any of us are in a position to pass judgement or be more correct than the other - i'm just playing devils advocate.
 
gigeorge said:
i'm just playing devils advocate.
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Really?

Any jerk can play devil's advocate, but we're talking about innocent people being killed. Children who were doing nothing wrong.

Would you like to play devil's advocate with 9/11 as well? Many people believe that was justified.

Devil's advocate is just what smart-arses use to justify the hollow, attention seeking, mean-spirited attempts at stirring up **** because they've got nothing of value to say.
 
gigeorge said:
Back to my point, could/would he achieved what he did without such actions?
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Nobody knows. Gandhi did. And more.

Edit: Just to add, in my opinion it wasn't worth it. Nobody is better off in South Africa now, apart from Zumba and his lot obviously. As I've stated before, the murdered multitudes don't care that they can have racial equality.
 
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Frightful Boar said:
but we're talking about innocent people being killed. Children who were doing nothing wrong.
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People care when it is black people killing white people, but when it is the other way round, it is conveniently forgotten.

In 1976 secondary students in Soweto took to the streets in the Soweto uprising to protest against forced tuition in Afrikaans. On 16 June, police opened fire on students in what was meant to be a peaceful protest. According to official reports 23 people were killed, but the number of people who died is usually given as 176 , with estimates of up to 700.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apartheid_in_South_Africa#Internal_resistance
 
The real question is.... Do you like crack?.. and do you like smack!?


RIP Nelson, hopefully remembered for how he changed things for the better.
 
The simple fact is extreme situations lead to extreme outcomes. I wouldn't, and no sane or rational person would, support or agree with any violence or killing no matter which side they were on. That is not to say though that I cannot understand the reason for the violence or appreciate that there was justification.

Ultimately he did more good than bad. That is in no way to suggest the bad wasn't absolutely terrible but it does further highlight how much good he did.
 
Frightful Boar said:
Who mentioned anyone's colour?

The ANC has killed WAY more black people than it has white.
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Point taken. Let me rephrase;

People/Media care when it is someone fighting against a predominantly white establishment and innocent civilians are killed, but when the establishment commits similar atrocities, it is much more acceptable.

E.g. UK/USA has killed thousands upon thousands of civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan, as 'collateral damage', but it's not in the interest of the western media to report or highlight any of that. A terrorist then commits an atrocity by killing a handful of people, and that becomes international news.

But I understand people's frustrations when all the Facebook/Twitter whores are posting 'R.I.P.' to fuel their likes and retweets, with no real understanding of who Mandela was. But then again, posting in this thread isn't much better. Why post R.I.P. at all? If you really cared, you could make a small donation to one of Mandela's charities.

Every R.I.P. thread in GD was destined to end in either:
- arguing about who was at fault
- arguing over who can be sued
- arguing that we shouldn't say RIP
- arguing that everyone else has a warped opinion on the person in question

In fact, most GD threads end like that.. R.I.P. GD :D
 
Nelson Mandela was not saint.
I am not a saint, unless you think of a saint as a sinner who keeps on trying.
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He was a man of deep feelings. Forgiveness and empathy laced with dashing of humour, as well as hatred at injustice.

He put aside his hatred and need for revenge, to work with people who treated him and his race as sub-human. That is why he should be recognised. Without his humanity South Africa would have been a blood bath.

The white government made negotiations impossible by banning the ANC, so it was a jail-able crime just to just belong to it. And whilst I do not condone the path the ANC took, particularly bombs aimed at civilians, I do understand why they thought it was the only option.

And as an earlier post stated every white person in South Africa who grew up during apartheid and ignored it should feel partly responsible. I do despite going on marches and being detained without trial twice for demonstrating.

A quote from Einstei, which was probably a paraphrase of Burke, sums up my feelings.
The world is in greater peril from those who tolerate or encourage evil than from those who actually commit it.
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Blazin23 said:
People/Media care when it is someone fighting against a predominantly white establishment and innocent civilians are killed, but when the establishment commits similar atrocities, it is much more acceptable.

Every R.I.P. thread in GD was destined to end in either:
- arguing about who was at fault
- arguing over who can be sued
- arguing that we shouldn't say RIP
- arguing that everyone else has a warped opinion on the person in question

In fact, most GD threads end like that.. R.I.P. GD :D
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Well put, completely agree. The last bit made me laugh.
 
All that's left now is a Mandela concert where 60 year olds get on stage trying to make another come back.
 
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