Richard Dawkins sums up religion

AGD said:
I have to agree with the other poster here. Actions speak louder than words, until doctrine is changed, you have to view everything Francis says as mere PR. Saying 'who am I to judge?' is not new or different. It's standard christian practice not to judge others. I haven't seen him say anything that suggests he believes homosexual acts are not wrong.
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I didn't say he he did say they were not wrong...and it is extremely rare for a Catholic Pope to make such statements, because the Pope, by his very words holds the authority of the Church.

He has made significant action..the fact he is consulting the Catholics themselves on how they perceive such teachings, the fact he is changing the Curia, beginning with the Congregation responsible for The Liturgy of the Church, He is initiating a new draft of the Apostolic Constitution, added to all the individual actions he has made....so yes actions do speak louder than words and the new Pope is shouting for all he is worth.

And what Spudbynight has not explained, perhaps didn't realise, is that the quote he gave is not the only one, and my comment was not based on that single statement alone..he has also stated that The Church must end its obsession with teachings on Abortion, Homosexuality and Contraception or risk the collapse of the morality of the Church. He said The Church had locked itself up in small things, in small minded rules and should not be so prone to condemn and that he feels socially wounded when a homosexual tells him that he feels Condemned by the Catholic Church, he said that the Church does not and should not want to do this. He said the Church is like a field hospital after a battle, healing the larger wounds of society (to this he references Poverty and War and Sickness) and should not be obsessed with the transmission of a disjointed multitude of doctrine to be imposed insistently. My comment (and my opinion) was formed by taking this (and other actions and statements) into consideration. I am not a Catholic.

The interview (which is lengthy) is called the Civilta Cattolica if you want to read it yourself and make up your own mind as to the intentions of the current Pope.
 
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Castiel said:
Which is what I said...your translation is actually your interpretation..which seems to ignore the actual position of the Pope and his Authority.
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Following on in the same "interview" - it was really just a Q&A on a flight.

"The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains this very well. It says one must not marginalize these persons, they must be integrated into society. The problem isn't this (homosexual) orientation -- we must be like brothers and sisters. The problem is something else, the problem is lobbying either for this orientation or a political lobby or a Masonic lobby."

Pope Francis didn't say anything new.

Castiel said:
I didn't say he he did say they were not wrong...and it is extremely rare for a Catholic Pope to make such statements, because the Pope, by his very words holds the authority of the Church.

He has made significant action..the fact he is consulting the Catholics themselves on how they perceive such teachings, the fact he is changing the Curia, beginning with the Congregation responsible for The Liturgy of the Church, He is initiating a new draft of the Apostolic Constitution, added to all the individual actions he has made....so yes actions do speak louder than words and the new Pope is shouting for all he is worth.

And what Spudbynight has not explained, perhaps didn't realise, is that the quote he gave is not the only one, and my comment was not based on that single statement alone..he has also stated that The Church must end its obsession with teachings on Abortion, Homosexuality and Contraception or risk the collapse of the morality of the Church. He said The Church had locked itself up in small things, in small minded rules and should not be so prone to condemn and that he feels socially wounded when a homosexual tells him that he feels Condemned by the Catholic Church, he said that the Church does not and should not want to do this. He said the Church is like a field hospital after a battle, healing the larger wounds of society (to this he references Poverty and War and Sickness) and should not be obsessed with the transmission of a disjointed multitude of doctrine to be imposed insistently. My comment (and my opinion) was formed by taking this (and other actions and statements) into consideration. I am not a Catholic.

The interview (which is lengthy) is called the Civilta Cattolica if you want to read it yourself and make up your own mind as to the intentions of the current Pope.
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I am familiar with the Civilta Cattolica interview. Pope Francis has spoken on numerous occasions where he has reiterated his support for Church teaching. That isn't going to change. From that interview :

“We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage and the use of contraceptive methods. This is not possible. I have not spoken much about these things, and I was reprimanded for that. But when we speak about these issues, we have to talk about them in a context. The teaching of the church, for that matter, is clear and I am a son of the church, but it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time."

What Pope Francis is striving to do is communicate the existing teaching of the Church in a way that people are more receptive to.
 
From the interview: I highlighted the part you quoted in order so people can see it in relation to that part of the interview.

“We need to proclaim the Gospel on every street corner,” the pope says, “preaching the good news of the kingdom and healing, even with our preaching, every kind of disease and wound. In Buenos Aires I used to receive letters from homosexual persons who are ‘socially wounded’ because they tell me that they feel like the church has always condemned them. But the church does not want to do this. During the return flight from Rio de Janeiro I said that if a homosexual person is of good will and is in search of God, I am no one to judge. By saying this, I said what the catechism says. Religion has the right to express its opinion in the service of the people, but God in creation has set us free: it is not possible to interfere spiritually in the life of a person.

“A person once asked me, in a provocative manner, if I approved of homosexuality. I replied with another question: ‘Tell me: when God looks at a gay person, does he endorse the existence of this person with love, or reject and condemn this person?’ We must always consider the person. Here we enter into the mystery of the human being. In life, God accompanies persons, and we must accompany them, starting from their situation. It is necessary to accompany them with mercy. When that happens, the Holy Spirit inspires the priest to say the right thing.

“This is also the great benefit of confession as a sacrament: evaluating case by case and discerning what is the best thing to do for a person who seeks God and grace. The confessional is not a torture chamber, but the place in which the Lord’s mercy motivates us to do better. I also consider the situation of a woman with a failed marriage in her past and who also had an abortion. Then this woman remarries, and she is now happy and has five children. That abortion in her past weighs heavily on her conscience and she sincerely regrets it. She would like to move forward in her Christian life. What is the confessor to do?

“We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage and the use of contraceptive methods. This is not possible. I have not spoken much about these things, and I was reprimanded for that. But when we speak about these issues, we have to talk about them in a context. The teaching of the church, for that matter, is clear and I am a son of the church, but it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time. The dogmatic and moral teachings of the church are not all equivalent. The church’s pastoral ministry cannot be obsessed with the transmission of a disjointed multitude of doctrines to be imposed insistently."

Proclamation in a missionary style focuses on the essentials, on the necessary things: this is also what fascinates and attracts more, what makes the heart burn, as it did for the disciples at Emmaus. We have to find a new balance; otherwise even the moral edifice of the church is likely to fall like a house of cards, losing the freshness and fragrance of the Gospel. The proposal of the Gospel must be more simple, profound, radiant. It is from this proposition that the moral consequences then flow.
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I do not disagree that he feel that the Catechism already teaches or supports these things, but I think he, as do many, that the Church (or rather the Vatican) has too often misinterpreted its understanding of Catechism in its practical manifestation and that this structure needs to be reformed.

The interview continues, and earlier he speaks about changes in structure and attitudes of the Church (to which I was referring in my earlier posts)

“How are we treating the people of God? I dream of a church that is a mother and shepherdess. The church’s ministers must be merciful, take responsibility for the people and accompany them like the good Samaritan, who washes, cleans and raises up his neighbor. This is pure Gospel. God is greater than sin. The structural and organizational reforms are secondary—that is, they come afterward. The first reform must be the attitude. The ministers of the Gospel must be people who can warm the hearts of the people, who walk through the dark night with them, who know how to dialogue and to descend themselves into their people’s night, into the darkness, but without getting lost. The people of God want pastors, not clergy acting like bureaucrats or government officials. The bishops, particularly, must be able to support the movements of God among their people with patience, so that no one is left behind. But they must also be able to accompany the flock that has a flair for finding new paths.
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Now to me this is a fundamental change in attitudes toward Doctrine...I know that people within the Vatican and here where I work are either greatly inspired by this or greatly disturbed, mainly dependent upon whether they are liberal or conservative in their own interpretation of how ministry should manifest in practical terms. In practical terms the initiation of the changes to the Curia and the way the Pope and The Vatican comport themselves are likely to be far more fundamental to the Church than many people realise..within the interview Pope Francis speaks somewhat about the shortcomings of the way in which Doctrine has been both interpreted and enforced in the past and the need for reform:

“The dicasteries of the Roman Curia are at the service of the pope and the bishops,” he says. “They must help both the particular churches and the bishops’ conferences. They are instruments of help. In some cases, however, when they are not functioning well, they run the risk of becoming institutions of censorship. It is amazing to see the denunciations for lack of orthodoxy that come to Rome. I think the cases should be investigated by the local bishops’ conferences, which can get valuable assistance from Rome. These cases, in fact, are much better dealt with locally. The Roman congregations are mediators; they are not middlemen or managers.”
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This is particularly interesting when you consider what he has said regarding confession and pastoral care by the clergy...for example, this virtually, if not literally gives Papal blessing to local Bishops and Priests to give blessing to the use of contraception in Africa, abortion in Ireland and so on..depending on the circumstances in which local ministries find themselves...he is putting the need of people above the dogma of the Church. Again this is a fundamental shift in attitude.

I could go on all day...I understand you may have a different perspective and of course mine is not authoritative...but I thought I would explain why I think the way I do, at least briefly in relation to the interview.

For those interested, the original interview is here:

http://www.americamagazine.org/pope-interview
 
God is real. Try converting a believer to anything else is a waste of time and effort.

It is 'always' the non believer that throws up doubts, needs proofs, searches for 'evidence'.

For me, and millions of other believers its irrelevant looking for scientific proofs as proof is there in the real world, all around us. Its in history too and everyday life.

To love God is very special and such a fantastic experience! You non believers will never ever understand unless you experience this yourself. You will never be able to comprehend unless you open up to God and accept him in your life.

If you dont want to do that then you will be always be in the dark.
 
koolpc said:
It is 'always' the non believer that throws up doubts, needs proofs, searches for 'evidence'.
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That is nonsense...People question and doubt their Faith every day. They also have evidence and proofs that accept as supporting their Faith...as Skunkworks said...rational people question things...and that includes people of Faith. Faith without reason is blind.
 
Castiel said:
That is nonsense...People question and doubt their Faith every day. They also have evidence and proofs that accept as supporting their Faith...as Skunkworks said...rational people question things...and that includes people of Faith. Faith without reason is blind.
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No, its nonsense what you said as on this forum it is only the non believers that question everything!! Faith in God is not blind but shows ones love and trust in God. Something a non believer could never comprehend!
 
Castiel said:
So you saw this creation, with your own two eyes? If you didn't, your own words say you cannot believe it, being told isn't evidence as far as your own words have told us....
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kedge, you are incredibly noticeable by your absence. Every time someone asks you an actual question, you shy away and hide behind your Bible.

You are a wimp. Evidently you have some kind of guilty conscience, because you know that the evidence you provide is incredibly inadequate. People here are trying to educate you, not out of spite, but because they know that you have been seriously misled.

Castiel has been incredibly patient with you and you do not even have the balls to respond to his question, as well as many others. You act as Judas to other members of your faith, making people believe that other Christians could actually be this dense.

People might respect your opinions if you actually bothered to respect theirs, and to answer their questions with honest responses.

Although I strongly disagree with koolpc, at least the chap has the decency to treat people how he would like to be treated, with respect, as a Christian should.

I somehow doubt that God adores weak minded fools like yourself.

The evidence for evolution is all around you, and as Castiel has stated. Furthermore, if evolution was a plan of God's, it's a damn beautiful one, and I would admire a person (or a God) that could conceive of such beauty. My opinion is that you should embrace science, whether you believe in God or not, for the perfect balance that we find in our universe. If you take that as evidence of God, so be it. If he existed, he would have a beautiful mind.

Anyway, you're too much of a coward to ever reply to this, so I shan't await any sort of response. It is a very ignorant man who treats other human beings like you do.

koolpc said:
God is real. Try converting a believer to anything else is a waste of time and effort.

It is 'always' the non believer that throws up doubts, needs proofs, searches for 'evidence'.

For me, and millions of other believers its irrelevant looking for scientific proofs as proof is there in the real world, all around us. Its in history too and everyday life.

To love God is very special and such a fantastic experience! You non believers will never ever understand unless you experience this yourself. You will never be able to comprehend unless you open up to God and accept him in your life.

If you dont want to do that then you will be always be in the dark.
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Yes indeed, I don't think any of us actually expect to "convert" anyone to Atheism, but we like to provide the evidence of scientific theory.

The non-believer needs evidence because without evidence, how could you know that anything was real?

I think I'm correct in saying that most people who live today believed in a God at one point, and I know I did. I certainly never felt any sort of response from this God like you appear to do.

I think your God would think you an absolute imbecile for never questioning the world around you. Is that not what religious leaders do? If God genuinely created the earth, and humans, and the universe, then part of his plan must clearly have been to have some people question faith. Whether this would have been to strengthen other's beliefs, I have no idea.
 
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koolpc said:
Nature is real. Try converting a empiricist to anything else is a waste of time and effort.

It is 'always' those of faith that throws up doubts, reject proof, searches for superstition.

For me, and millions of other empiricists its irrelevant looking for delusional beliefs as proof is there in the real world, all around us. Its in history too and everyday life.

To love nature is very special and such a fantastic experience! People of faith will never ever understand unless you experience this yourself. You will never be able to comprehend unless you open up to knowledge and accept reason in your life.

If you dont want to do that then you will be always be in the dark.
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Made some much needed adjustments; first drafts are tricky so don't worry!
 
koolpc said:
No, its nonsense what you said as on this forum it is only the non believers that question everything!! Faith in God is not blind but shows ones love and trust in God. Something a non believer could never comprehend!
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I suspect that some of our more rational religious members would say that they question their faith quite regularly...it is how people inform and strengthen their faith by challenging it, if it cannot stand against the challenge and burden of questions, it is worthless.

I can also comprehend that kind of trust in something quite well thanks.
 
For someone like me, who 100% loves God its like a single track road with no side lanes. For me, my faith and love of God carries me down a straight road of belief and love. There is no question of wandering off that road as my belief and faith are immovable. It is so strong that i really dont see anything that has been said that would 'bump' me off this road.

It is hard to fathom for a lot of you on here but guys, you have to understand that when your love and beliefs are so strong, which is what love of God should be, then nothing will persuade you otherwise!

Look at the martyrs of the past. They died for their their beliefs and love of God. This is how strong i feel about it. You may abuse my words on here and ridicule me but it stands that my love of God is set in stone. If you ever feel this yourselves then you will understand.

I know this is hard for a lot of you to comprehend but i am sorry but my faith is rock solid and my love of God is embedded deep within my heart, Soul and life!
 
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Castiel, could you provide evidence of 'information' being created by natural processes? It's just whenever we see codes we know there is an intelligent mind behind it. Why would DNA be anything different? It's the most complicated code known to man.

Oh and one more thing: when looking at the tree of life, what comes in between? All we see is one fully formed creature to another fully formed creature. It's as if life came to be raring to go.
 
koolpc said:
For someone like me, who 100% loves God its like a single track road with no side lanes. For me, my faith and love of God carries me down a straight road of belief and love. There is no question of wandering off that road as my belief and faith are immovable. It is so strong that i really dont see anything that has been said that would 'bump' me off this road.

It is hard to fathom for a lot of you on here but guys, you have to understand that when your love and beliefs are so strong, which is what love of God should be, then nothing will persuade you otherwise!

Look at the martyrs of the past. They died for their their beliefs and love of God. This is how strong i feel about it. You may abuse my words on here and ridicule me but it stands that my love of God is set in stone. If you ever feel this yourselves then you will understand.

I know this is hard for a lot of you to comprehend but i am sorry but my faith is rock solid and my love of God is embedded deep within my heart, Soul and life!
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It's not hard for me to comprehend, my faith meant a lot to me for many years. I know that feeling you describe well.

Personally, I went in search of answers to the questions non-believers came at me with to reaffirm my faith. The more I looked, the more I realized that the arguments, cosmological, teleological and ontological were poorly represented by the religious. I found the arguments I had been raised to use suddenly seemed hollow and often all too easily refuted, I felt I had been cheated and misled.

I remember seeing William Lane Craig debate the first time, he really impressed me until I slowly went through his argument, yet again, what at first seemed impressive suddenly seems like a cheap card trick full of holes and intended to mislead and misdirect.

In many ways, I miss my faith but for me the curtain has been pulled away and there is no way I can go back and submit to suspend my credulity. My daughter is a bright young lass and when she asks me my opinion, I answer as honestly as I can but always remind her I could be wrong and she must weigh up all the evidence for herself, I could not imaging my parents or most religious parents doing the same.
 
hyster said:
It's not hard for me to comprehend, my faith meant a lot to me for many years. I know that feeling you describe well.

Personally, I went in search of answers to the questions non-believers came at me with to reaffirm my faith. The more I looked, the more I realized that the arguments, cosmological, teleological and ontological were poorly represented by the religious. I found the arguments I had been raised to use suddenly seemed hollow and often all too easily refuted, I felt I had been cheated and misled.

I remember seeing William Lane Craig debate the first time, he really impressed me until I slowly went through his argument, yet again, what at first seemed impressive suddenly seems like a cheap card trick full of holes and intended to mislead and misdirect.

In many ways, I miss my faith but for me the curtain has been pulled away and there is no way I can go back and submit to suspend my credulity. My daughter is a bright young lass and when she asks me my opinion, I answer as honestly as I can but always remind her I could be wrong and she must weigh up all the evidence for herself, I could not imaging my parents or most religious parents doing the same.
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Great post.
 
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