Why should we accept and accommodate people being fat?

[Pestilence]

There are people who are genuinely overweight through no fault of their own, would you simply tar everyone with the same brush?

Mr. Badger would... but I eated it.

 

[Dis86]

Part of the problem is the woefully poor understanding in the general public, I mean let's just look at one singular example - in recent studies of the FTO gene related to the hunger hormone ghrelin.

"People have two copies of the FTO gene - one from each parent - and each copy comes in a high- and a low-risk form. Those with two-high risk copies of the FTO gene are thought to be 70% more likely to become obese than those with low-risk genes."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FTO_gene#Association_with_obesity

16% carry 2 rogue copies of the DNA and are 70% more likely to be obese
49% carry one flawed FTO gene and are 30% more likely to be obese

Just one of literally countless factors, if it really is about laziness - how can simply carrying a flawed gene be such a strong predictive variable when ascertaining how likely a person is to become obese?.

What about those with the genes who aren't obese? The genes do not make you fat. They do not force you to eat. They do not stop you exercising.
I've mentioned before I have a medical problem that means I need to eat more than the average person. I am not overweight.
My parents are overweight. Some of my friends are overweight. I was brought up and live in an area of the country where people are statistically more likely to be overweight. Again, I am not overweight.

The only way someone becomes overweight is based on pure physics. Energy cannot be created or destroyed, just converted. No matter what someones metabolism, genetic predisposition or medical issues they do not become overweight except by putting more in to their bodies than is coming out. It is not physically possible. Exercise more, more energy consumed, weight goes down. Eat less carbs/fats/proteins, less energy consumed, weight goes down.#
Put it down to any of the reasons you wish, all of them can be over-ridden. All it takes is the action of doing so.
In the majority of cases people will simply be unwilling to do this. That's why they're fat.

 

[pioneer2000]

I've never seen a fat person in any of those save the africans adverts.

 

[Castiel]

What about those with the genes who aren't obese? The genes do not make you fat. They do not force you to eat. They do not stop you exercising.
I've mentioned before I have a medical problem that means I need to eat more than the average person. I am not overweight.
My parents are overweight. Some of my friends are overweight. I was brought up and live in an area of the country where people are statistically more likely to be overweight. Again, I am not overweight.

The only way someone becomes overweight is based on pure physics. Energy cannot be created or destroyed, just converted. No matter what someones metabolism, genetic predisposition or medical issues they do not become overweight except by putting more in to their bodies than is coming out. It is not physically possible. Exercise more, more energy consumed, weight goes down. Eat less carbs/fats/proteins, less energy consumed, weight goes down.#
Put it down to any of the reasons you wish, all of them can be over-ridden. All it takes is the action of doing so.
In the majority of cases people will simply be unwilling to do this. That's why they're fat.

It's really not always that simple. Hormones such as Ghrelin and Leptin can really mess with the way your body uses and stores energy, you can be in a position where the amount of calories you consume are not enough for your body's daily needs, yet due to hormone imbalances you still gain weight. Sometimes no amount of starving or exercise will combat weight gain, not without serious health issues arising from not getting enough nutrients. I know this because it happened to me...massive weight gain over a period of 8 years and the subsequent diets, exercise etc...still gained weight..eventually when I became increasingly ill (I went on a 500kcal diet and still gained weight) the GP sent me to a specialist who, after a battery of blood tests etc diagnosed hormone problems..probably begun by changes in my biochemistry due to a virus all those years ago...so after a minor OP and some hormone replacement etc...my body is reacting to food and energy in the correct way and weight problems are a thing of the past.

And this is just one example...the way you eat, what you eat, when you eat, how often you eat is just as important as how much you eat...exercise is for fitness, not weight-loss..weight-loss is 97% diet. There is also the problem that the more weight you gain the more your body chemistry changes which increases the way your body produces and stores fats and decreases the way your body uses energy, some people are in a catch22 whereby dieting and exercise is simply not enough and medical intervention is required....modern supermarket foods do not help...such as adding fructose to chicken breasts and so on...you often have no idea what you are actually eating...it appears healthy and calories are low, but the addition of fructose and other additives mean that how your body reacts to the food is impaired.

As Elmarko said...it is a really complex issue...it really isn't as simple as calories in, calories out.

 

[Souleh]

Interestingly, perhaps society as a whole could be more accepting of skinny people?

I see a lot (mostly women) having jibes at others in good shape for being "to blame" for their self consciousness. It was a big point on "im a celebrity" this year where they all had a go at the supermodel for being to blame for making others feel bad. a lot of girls I know will take a distrust or disliking to any other girls in great shape, I always put it down to competition but it definitely does exist. Perhaps some OCUK females could help on that one.

 

[tom_e]

Interestingly, perhaps society as a whole could be more accepting of skinny people?

I see a lot (mostly women) having jibes at others in good shape for being "to blame" for their self consciousness. It was a big point on "im a celebrity" this year where they all had a go at the supermodel for being to blame for making others feel bad. a lot of girls I know will take a distrust or disliking to any other girls in great shape, I always put it down to competition but it definitely does exist. Perhaps some OCUK females could help on that one.

It's not just females, if a bloke goes from out of shape to looking better you get exactly the same sort of crap from men.

 

[regulus]

Ever heard the "I've got a slow metabolism" excuse then another day you see the person scoffing bars of dairy milk.

Weekly. Almost as often as I hear the, 'I can't spell because I'm dyslexic' excuse.

Just the usual excuses to justify laziness or stupidity.

 

[Dis86]

It's really not always that simple. Hormones such as Ghrelin and Leptin can really mess with the way your body uses and stores energy, you can be in a position where the amount of calories you consume are not enough for your body's daily needs, yet due to hormone imbalances you still gain weight. Sometimes no amount of starving or exercise will combat weight gain, not without serious health issues arising from not getting enough nutrients. I know this because it happened to me...massive weight gain over a period of 8 years and the subsequent diets, exercise etc...still gained weight..eventually when I became increasingly ill (I went on a 500kcal diet and still gained weight) the GP sent me to a specialist who, after a battery of blood tests etc diagnosed hormone problems..probably begun by changes in my biochemistry due to a virus all those years ago...so after a minor OP and some hormone replacement etc...my body is reacting to food and energy in the correct way and weight problems are a thing of the past.

And this is just one example...the way you eat, what you eat, when you eat, how often you eat is just as important as how much you eat...exercise is for fitness, not weight-loss..weight-loss is 97% diet. There is also the problem that the more weight you gain the more your body chemistry changes which increases the way your body produces and stores fats and decreases the way your body uses energy, some people are in a catch22 whereby dieting and exercise is simply not enough and medical intervention is required....modern supermarket foods do not help...such as adding fructose to chicken breasts and so on...you often have no idea what you are actually eating...it appears healthy and calories are low, but the addition of fructose and other additives mean that how your body reacts to the food is impaired.

As Elmarko said...it is a really complex issue...it really isn't as simple as calories in, calories out.

Congratulations Castiel. You've defied physics.

 

[Castiel]

Congratulations Castiel. You've defied physics.

No I haven't...it just is not as simple as it appears. Basically not all calories are created equal and not all bodies react in the same way...the energy is stored rather than expended even if tyhe bosy requires that energy to burn, it simply doesnt do it in the correct way so you end up gaining weight rather than expending the energy despite lowing calorie intake or increasing exercise..you body simply reacts and readjusts its body chemistry accordingly, even to the detriment of the body's needs and energy requirements, there is a deficiency and impairment in body chemistry and how your body uses food to produce, store and use energy, thinks like Ghrelin, Leptin, Insulin and how and when they are released and in what quantities have significant impact on how your body works...it is not defying physics, it just is not as simplistic as you make out. Sorry if that flummoxes you somewhat, but its just the way it is for some people.

 

[Ryan-3]

I'm not fat, I'm festively plump.

I actually read that in Cartmans voice without thinking of it

 

[beamer]

Part of it will be the overtly athletic role she took in the Hunger Games, though that doesn't justify the fat comments.

To me, she is a Monroe level beauty and far from fat.

On one hand, I'm glad we are so well off in the West that we have to occupy ourselves with such unimportant frivolity. On the other hand, I still want to see my progress faster instead - technological, economic, scientific ... maybe a war is the only way to put some perspective on the former and fuel the latter.

This is back in the news after Jennifer Lawrence suggested calling people fat on TV should be banned which has triggered a wider debate. Obviously it is ridiculous that a size 10 actress has been called fat and that is given. Similarly, there are people that have unavoidable medical conditions (and I don't mean "being big boned") that lead them to have weight issues.

However, there are genuine campaigns now calling for wider acceptance of fat people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_acceptance_movement), and I heard a stupid woman on the radio this morning suggest that calling fat people fat is as bad as gender or race discrimination. I'll let you pick the holes in that one.

For me though, why should we accept or accommodate fat people (expanding seats, wider doors etc etc)? Isn't it about time someone put their foot down and said to people, sort it out, you are a burden on society just as smokers were told before? I remember being in America nearly ten years ago and seeing people that were disabled as a result of their size - it's an increasing sight in the UK now. As a society we are so quick to pillory financial greed but treat gluttony as if it's amusing and harmless.

Thoughts?

 

[Castiel]

Ever heard the "I've got a slow metabolism" excuse then another day you see the person scoffing bars of dairy milk.

The larger you are the faster your metabolism...unless you have metabolic syndrome or something similar like a hormone issue (which is pretty rare btw)..this is why otherwise healthy overweight people lose weight quickly initially..as their metabolism needs to be faster as the same level of activity in say, someone who is 20st requires far more energy than in someone who is 15st..or 10st and so on.... it is opften why after losing weight, it slows down and they lose motivation..mainly because they have not adjusted their diet and exercise programs to accommodate a slowing metabolism as the energy requirements to the same level of activity are reduced as the weight decreases.

 

[Dis86]

No I haven't...it just is not as simple as it appears. Basically not all calories are created equal and not all bodies react in the same way...the energy is stored rather than expended even if tyhe bosy requires that energy to burn, it simply doesnt do it in the correct way so you end up gaining weight rather than expending the energy despite lowing calorie intake or increasing exercise..you body simply reacts and readjusts its body chemistry accordingly, even to the detriment of the body's needs and energy requirements, there is a deficiency and impairment in body chemistry and how your body uses food to produce, store and use energy, thinks like Ghrelin, Leptin, Insulin and how and when they are released and in what quantities have significant impact on how your body works...it is not defying physics, it just is not as simplistic as you make out. Sorry if that flummoxes you somewhat, but its just the way it is for some people.

First thing, gaining weight is not the same as being fat. On your 500kCal diet in order to have put on fat you would have been having to, obviously, exist on less than that. That's not possible for extended periods, it's medically very dangerous and quite frankly after an extended period probably would have resulted in your death. It's possible that a lot of the weight was simply fluid retention by your body. Again...that's not being fat, it's just being unwell. Other weight gain could have been caused by retention of metabolic waste...again poor sod that you are you would have felt very unwell as a result.

Energy cannot be created or destroyed. It can only be transformed. You cannot exist without energy. Respiration requires it. Thought requires it. Most of it is employed in basic bodily functions - keeping us alive on a day to day basis. Energy not used by the body is frequently stored as fat. There is a minimum that every person needs to survive and get through the day, although it differs from person to person (this is where metabolism mostly comes in). If you are providing less energy than this via nutrition then your body will begin to break itself down in order to supply the required energy and reduce its own demands. Additional metabolic activity in the body requires additional energy (if not supplied through recent nutrition it can be supplied by stored fat), conversely, additional energy requires additional activity. Some people might burn 100 calories running a mile, some might burn 120, everyone burns something - FACT. It is basic physics that Work Done = Force x Distance. Every bit of movement involves forces over a distance. Every bit of movement requires therefore that work be done. The units for work, Joules. 1kCal = about 4000 Joules they are all created equal as they have a net value of energy. Thus every bit of movement that the body does burns some calories.
Therefore to get rid of more calories in...move more

If this isn't true please explain how you can move without using energy. I would really love to know because well...it would make me a very rich man.

Also the hormones you're referring to control appetite. They tell you in essence whether to put more calories in, or not. That's the main way they control weight. Here's the thing...you don't have to listen to them. As much as your body is screaming at you for more pie you can just...you know...ignore it.

 

[elmarko]

First thing, gaining weight is not the same as being fat. On your 500kCal diet in order to have put on fat you would have been having to, obviously, exist on less than that. That's not possible for extended periods, it's medically very dangerous and quite frankly after an extended period probably would have resulted in your death. It's possible that a lot of the weight was simply fluid retention by your body. Again...that's not being fat, it's just being unwell. Other weight gain could have been caused by retention of metabolic waste...again poor sod that you are you would have felt very unwell as a result.

Energy cannot be created or destroyed. It can only be transformed. You cannot exist without energy. Respiration requires it. Thought requires it. Most of it is employed in basic bodily functions - keeping us alive on a day to day basis. Energy not used by the body is frequently stored as fat. There is a minimum that every person needs to survive and get through the day, although it differs from person to person (this is where metabolism mostly comes in). If you are providing less energy than this via nutrition then your body will begin to break itself down in order to supply the required energy and reduce its own demands. Additional metabolic activity in the body requires additional energy (if not supplied through recent nutrition it can be supplied by stored fat), conversely, additional energy requires additional activity. Some people might burn 100 calories running a mile, some might burn 120, everyone burns something - FACT. It is basic physics that Work Done = Force x Distance. Every bit of movement involves forces over a distance. Every bit of movement requires therefore that work be done. The units for work, Joules. 1kCal = about 4000 Joules they are all created equal as they have a net value of energy. Thus every bit of movement that the body does burns some calories.
Therefore to get rid of more calories in...move more

If this isn't true please explain how you can move without using energy. I would really love to know because well...it would make me a very rich man.

Also the hormones you're referring to control appetite. They tell you in essence whether to put more calories in, or not. That's the main way they control weight. Here's the thing...you don't have to listen to them. As much as your body is screaming at you for more pie you can just...you know...ignore it.

I assume you are a multitalented billionaire with the body of a Greek god yes?.

Because you know, you can just... you know... do it right?.

Who needs the complex field of human psychology & human behaviour when all along Dis86 (I assume his DOB, but it could be his IQ) has the full understand of human behaviour already mapped out to perfection.

Please oh great one, bestow unto us the sacred knowledge ye have garnered from the tree of wisdom.

 

[One More Solo]

Does everyone assume that those who are overweight just eat too much and do little exercise?
There are people who are genuinely overweight through no fault of their own, would you simply tar everyone with the same brush?

What percentage of the obese population would you say are genuinely overweight through no fault of their own?

Why attribute the massive rise in obesity to increasingly sedentary lifestyles and poor choices when you can blame the evil hormones...

 

[Castiel]

First thing, gaining weight is not the same as being fat. On your 500kCal diet in order to have put on fat you would have been having to, obviously, exist on less than that. That's not possible for extended periods, it's medically very dangerous and quite frankly after an extended period probably would have resulted in your death. It's possible that a lot of the weight was simply fluid retention by your body. Again...that's not being fat, it's just being unwell. Other weight gain could have been caused by retention of metabolic waste...again poor sod that you are you would have felt very unwell as a result.

Clearly I was unwell..which is what I said!!!

However it wasn't as simple as you make out...a lot of my weight was fat, not fluid. I wish it was fluid as that would have been far simpler to deal with. No disrespect to you (even if it appears you are implying it toward me with your tone) but I had a range of very well qualified medical professionals deal with this and so I would take their advice over yours...however, as I will explain, How your body reacts to certain hormones and proteins can have significant impact on how your body both stores and uses energy. The easiest way to explain it is that my body was working backward so to speak...storing the energy (no matter how little I was consuming) before trying to use it..this caused a bulid up of fat around my lower abdomen, basically I was skinny on top and fat down below...this eventually led to the GP (after putting me on a very restrictive diet) to decide that something more was going on. Yes I was unwell, but a side effect of that illness was serious and excessive weight gain over relatively short period and disproportionate fat production to energy intake, which in itself causes more issues relating to hormones and so on...a self perpetuating condition, that basically means that the more you attempt to do something about it, the more aggressive the illness becomes.

As far as your treatise on energy storage, I wrote this above your last post:

The larger you are the faster your metabolism...unless you have metabolic syndrome or something similar like a hormone issue (which is pretty rare btw)..this is why otherwise healthy overweight people lose weight quickly initially..as their metabolism needs to be faster as the same level of activity in say, someone who is 20st requires far more energy than in someone who is 15st..or 10st and so on.... it is often why after losing weight, it slows down and they lose motivation..mainly because they have not adjusted their diet and exercise programs to accommodate a slowing metabolism as the energy requirements to the same level of activity are reduced as the weight decreases.

so I understand the principle better than you realise..but you do not seem to appreciate that the mechanism can be impaired in some people, therefore their ability to follow a systematic approach to weight-loss is also impaired...like I said..it is not as simple as you are saying it is.

Also the hormones you're referring to control appetite. They tell you in essence whether to put more calories in, or not. That's the main way they control weight. Here's the thing...you don't have to listen to them. As much as your body is screaming at you for more pie you can just...you know...ignore it.

How it was explained to me by a consultant who dealt with my case was basically this...

Ghrelin does indeed control appetite, as do others, it can also in sufficient quantities impair the production of Leptin..which regulates energy intake and plays a role in how your body chooses to use and store energy...it helps regulate metabolism and again this has an impact on how your body uses and stores energy..this also has a impact on insulin production and can lead to metabolic syndrome and other related disorders, other related proteins such as Obestatin are also affected. Ghrelin for example is actually is supposed to decrease in obese people...in some however it does not..and in conjunction with other hormones and proteins it can also fool the body into thinking it is fasting, when it is actually not..this has two affects..one it cause the body to crave higher calorie foods and second it forces the body to go into "starvation mode" where the body begins to lower metabolism and begins storing energy (as fat) even when the bodies energy requirements are high..this causes the person to feel lethargic and hungry and so on..thus the cycle continues.

You can say.."don't listen to them'..but it really isn't as simplistic as that.

 

[JohnnyDrama]

Well I'm overweight by about 30kgs .... it's just my body type ...

There is no body type that makes you 4 and a half stone over weight.

 

[Dis86]

I assume you are a multitalented billionaire with the body of a Greek god yes?.

Because you know, you can just... you know... do it right?.

Who needs the complex field of human psychology & human behaviour when all along Dis86 (I assume his DOB, but it could be his IQ) has the full understand of human behaviour already mapped out to perfection.

Please oh great one, bestow unto us the sacred knowledge ye have garnered from the tree of wisdom.

Excellent, retorting to insults and flippant comments. Well done Elmarko!

Consider this one...people with addictions. How do they beat them?

Answer...willpower. Their body craves and demands the subject of their addiction they make the decision not to give in. They could be lazy and give up but they don't. They use mental and often physical effort.
Think of that addiction like the genes that are present in the study you mentioned. People could be lazy like i've been suggesting and give in to the urges and cravings or they could be strong.

 

[V F]

Consider this one...people with addictions. How do they beat them?

Replaced with another addiction.

 

[zenf]

Excellent, retorting to insults and flippant comments. Well done Elmarko!

Consider this one...people with addictions. How do they beat them?

Answer...willpower. Their body craves and demands the subject of their addiction they make the decision not to give in. They could be lazy and give up but they don't. They use mental and often physical effort.
Think of that addiction like the genes that are present in the study you mentioned. People could be lazy like i've been suggesting and give in to the urges and cravings or they could be strong.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...oes-willpower-play-role-in-addiction-recovery

By now, the research is clear: Addiction is a chronic brain disease, not a matter of willpower. This means that, contrary to old stereotypes, people who become addicted to drugs or alcohol are not weak, immoral or tragically flawed.
...
As anyone who has tried to strong-arm themselves into recovery knows, willpower alone is rarely enough to overcome addiction. Most addicts, at some point, want to quit. They cut ties with drug-abusing friends, they get rid of their stash of drugs, they make heartfelt promises to their loved ones—and, without the appropriate supports in place, many promptly return to their old ways. This pattern is common no matter how strong the addict’s will has been in the past or how intelligent, disciplined or hard-working they are.

There's a lot more to it than just willpower.