Lawful killing of Mark Duggan

[:(Rhodri:)]

That's what they call the part time cops around here

All of your posts seem to show a very fixed and negative viewpoint about the police in general, have you personally had any problems with the police or are you just from a community where dislike and distrust of the police is the norm?

 

[wildman]

Personally, I believe this clearly shows the view you wish to believe.

You're happy to believe police officers shot someone without any reason.

Can you not believe they did think there was a threat, and that someone a long way off didn't see/perceive this threat?

we will lhave none of that kind of logic here young man.

The police shot him because they are trigger happy, power trip, racist thugs and wanted to execute a man gang land style in the streets of London town. Those are the facts of how this actually happened, because the police like to use their guns when ever they get the opportunity...................

/Sarcasm mode off...........

 

[deuse]

How very mature.

Why thank you

All of your posts seem to show a very fixed and negative viewpoint about the police in general, have you personally had any problems with the police or are you just from a community where dislike and distrust of the police is the norm?

You never read the whole thread then...oh dear. Come on time to start reading

 

[RDM]

Because he had disposed of the gun by the time he was confronted by the police.

Actually we have no idea when he had disposed himself of the gun, it could have been moments before getting shot rather than before he was confronted by the police.

Apparently, despite the fact he had disarmed himself, when confronted by the armed police he decided to make a move as if grabbing for a gun and that's why he was shot. Doesn't that seem odd to you? Why would he give them a reason?

The move he made could have been anything, we don't know what it was because the only person that can tell us is dead. With hindsight we know it wasn't anything dangerous because we know he didn't have a gun. However the officers at the time did not know that and had to make a split second decision. The jury at the inquest obviously decided that the evidence offered to them was enough for the majority of them to decide he was lawfully killed, i.e. the police officer still thought he was armed and was an immediate threat.

You disagree yet seem to be unable to say exactly why.

I'm really not saying they're lying - I'm saying that I don't see why everything they say should be taken as gospel when there are other possible scenarios which we can't disprove.

Because that is what the verdict of the jury was and they were the ones that had access to all of the evidence? The rest of us have to make do with whatever documents we can be bothered to read and whatever news reports or blogs fit our own bias.

 

[:(Rhodri:)]

You never read the whole thread then...oh dear. Come on time to start reading

I've been reading the thread from the start and just re-skimmed it and and can't see anything?

To make my own standpoint clear I believe the outcome of the trial, however I would support armed officers wearing camera equipment for the future as it would help to mitigate cases like this where several witnesses versions of events vary so wildly.

 

[Devlish]

I've been reading the thread from the start and just re-skimmed it and and can't see anything?

To make my own standpoint clear I believe the outcome of the trial, however I would support armed officers wearing camera equipment for the future as it would help to mitigate cases like this where several witnesses versions of events vary so wildly.

Pretty much this. I think the jury got it right, but theres no reason not to have video cameras now theyve been miniaturised.

 

[zenf]

Actually we have no idea when he had disposed himself of the gun, it could have been moments before getting shot rather than before he was confronted by the police.

"The Jury, in a majority of 9:1, concluded that Mark Duggan
threw the firearm onto the grass.
Of the 9, 8 have concluded that it is more likely than not, that
Mark Duggan threw the firearm as soon as the minicab came
to a stop and prior to any officers being on the pavement."

The move he made could have been anything, we don't know what it was because the only person that can tell us is dead. With hindsight we know it wasn't anything dangerous because we know he didn't have a gun. However the officers at the time did not know that and had to make a split second decision. The jury at the inquest obviously decided that the evidence offered to them was enough for the majority of them to decide he was lawfully killed, i.e. the police officer still thought he was armed and was an immediate threat.

You disagree yet seem to be unable to say exactly why.

I've getting a bit sick of saying why tbh... The only evidence the jury has to make the decision is the testimony of the involved officers (ignoring Witness B) which isn't strong enough to say it was lawful imo, it should've been an open verdict.

Because that is what the verdict of the jury was and they were the ones that had access to all of the evidence? The rest of us have to make do with whatever documents we can be bothered to read and whatever news reports or blogs fit our own bias.

I read quite a bit of the evidence on the government website.. As far as I'm aware, correct me if I'm wrong, but the only evidence the jury had as to whether the officer(s) honestly and reasonably felt under threat is just the testimony of the officers involved and Witness B... Considering the amount of distrust of the police over this and other recent cases, I wouldn't have thought they'd withhold any evidence that suggested that their claims are correct so I'm presuming that's the extent of the evidence, which really doesn't seem strong enough to go beyond an open verdict.

 

[matt_fsr]

Stop living in your police larper world dude.

What on earth is a larper?

It does indeed mean 'Live Action RolePlayer' - hence LARP.

It's a thinly-veiled sideswipe at Burnsy2023 for not being a 'full' Police officer. (forgive my memory, can't remember if Burnsy is a special or what)

If the mods were anything like armed Police in this country, he'd be perma'd in an instant*!



*joking

 

[Burnsy2023]

Stop living in your police larper world dude.

*Sigh*. Stop the trolling.

"IPCC investigates allegation Hampshire police chief lied over where he lives"

That was the PCC, not the Chief Constable

"Samantha Dunlop of Hampshire Constabulary was proven to be a liar"

"Dunlop’s tell lies to ISP’s in an attempt to remove the published truth about them"

I don't know about this, but I'm finding it hard to find a reliable and impartial source for what this is about.

 

[RDM]

The jury unanimously decided that he disposed of the gun before he was confronted by the police. I think that was the only unanimous decision they made.

I am going to have to say you are an unreliable witness here, there were several unanimous decisions, this however wasn't one of them.

The Jury, in a majority of 9:1, concluded that Mark Duggan
threw the firearm onto the grass.
Of the 9, 8 have concluded that it is more likely than not, that
Mark Duggan threw the firearm as soon as the minicab came
to a stop and prior to any officers being on the pavement.
1 concluded that Mark Duggan threw the firearm whilst on the
pavement and in the process of evading the police.
1 juror was not convinced of any supposition that Mark
Duggan threw the firearm from the vehicle or from the
pavement because no witnesses gave evidence to this effect.

However it doesn't go into any timings. I have no idea what the time period between him getting out of the cab and being shot was.

I've getting a bit sick of saying why tbh... The only evidence the jury has to make the decision is the testimony of the involved officers (ignoring Witness B) which isn't strong enough to say it was lawful imo, it should've been an open verdict.

So you aren't the police were lying but you don't think the testimony of the police is a truthful account?

Obviously the majority of jurors believed otherwise, hence the lawful killing verdict. We will never know what their deliberations were like but only 2 of the 8 agreed with you as far as an open verdict.

 

[zenf]

I am going to have to say you are an unreliable witness here, there were several unanimous decisions, this however wasn't one of them.

I ninja edited just before you posted, bwhaha

So you aren't the police were lying but you don't think the testimony of the police is a truthful account?

Obviously the majority of jurors believed otherwise, hence the lawful killing verdict. We will never know what their deliberations were like but only 2 of the 8 agreed with you as far as an open verdict.

I'm not saying that the testimony isn't truthful, I just don't think we (or the jury) can really say whether it is or it isn't which is why I think it should be an open verdict.

 

[Robbo]

Why thank you

I think I speak for everyone here when I say - you're embarrassing yourself, again.

Just what exactly have you been in trouble with the police for that makes you hate them so? I bet you did nothing wrong, right?

 

[RDM]

I ninja edited just before you posted, bwhaha

Changing your story now eh? Definitely an unreliable witness.

 

[Frightful Boar]

I think I speak for everyone here when I say - you're embarrassing yourself, again.

Just what exactly have you been in trouble with the police for that makes you hate them so? I bet you did nothing wrong, right?

It's a cry for attention. Boohoo, the mean police.

A lot of people have a problem with authority/daddy figures and hating the police also means they get to fit in with all the other cool rebels.

 

[zenf]

Changing your story now eh? Definitely an unreliable witness.

Argh, I've made the same mistake as Witness B!

 

[deuse]

It does indeed mean 'Live Action RolePlayer' - hence LARP.

It's a thinly-veiled sideswipe at Burnsy2023 for not being a 'full' Police officer. (forgive my memory, can't remember if Burnsy is a special or what)

If the mods were anything like armed Police in this country, he'd be perma'd in an instant*!



*joking

*Sigh*. Stop the trolling.



That was the PCC, not the Chief Constable



I don't know about this, but I'm finding it hard to find a reliable and impartial source for what this is about.

Both of you not reading all the thread but Burnsy has admitted he has made mistakes in this one.
Burnsey you can't find a reliable source no surprise there then. And where I live we call part time cops Larpers. so not trolling.

That's one thing about a real copper like Von he knows how to have a laugh and a joke because he is a real copper.

Just thought..Burnsy have you said I'm trolling so you can ban me for a bit? The power is getting to you boy

 

[deuse]

I think I speak for everyone here when I say - you're embarrassing yourself, again.

Why thank you but stop thinking

Just what exactly have you been in trouble with the police for that makes you hate them so? I bet you did nothing wrong, right?

Who said I have? oh that's right no one. Oh and another one not reading the whole thread.
Now off with you little boy\girl and read it ALL again

 

[Crpwned]

Burnsey you can't find a reliable source no surprise there then.

You also haven't posted where your credible sources, just "Google it" so no surprise there

I'm with the jury on this one, seems to be a solid case of them acting perfectly within reason. They perceived him as a definite threat to them, therefore they acted accordingly.
Couldn't be simpler in my eyes.

 

[Robbo]

Why thank you but stop thinking

Who said I have? oh that's right no one. Oh and another one not reading the whole thread.
Now off with you little boy\girl and read it ALL again

Fine, keep it to yourself then. Failure to produce sources or credible evidence for what you say isn't the fault of other people. You just can't do it (probably because it isn't there), as usual.

It's a cry for attention. Boohoo, the mean police.

A lot of people have a problem with authority/daddy figures and hating the police also means they get to fit in with all the other cool rebels.

You're not wrong.

 

[DanielMMS]

I've getting a bit sick of saying why tbh... The only evidence the jury has to make the decision is the testimony of the involved officers (ignoring Witness B) which isn't strong enough to say it was lawful imo, it should've been an open verdict.

Stop saying it then, as it is not true

A quick look at the details of the inquest would have shown you that there were testimonies (some oral, some written) from a broad range of people. A list is below. Some will have been direct witnesses to the actual incident, some to the previous incident when the firearm was passed to Duggan. Others will be indirect witnesses. Others provide medical evidence, forensic evidence or are experts in other fields. The jury will have had ALL THIS EVIDENCE - not just the police vs Witness B you mention - and on the basis of that reached the conclusion that they did.

A/DI Peter SUGGETT: Metropolitan Police Service – DPS Specialist Investigations
Asst Ch Const Stuart CUNDY: Metropolitan Police Service – Trident Gang Crime Command - now Surrey Constabulary
DAC Martin HEWITT: Metropolitan Police Service – ACPO Lead Officer
DC Jonathan PAYNE: Metropolitan Police Service – DPS Specialist Investigations Exhibits
DC Rachael SAMUEL: Metropolitan Police Service – DPS Specialist Investigations Exhibits
DC Steve FAULKNER: Metropolitan Police Service – Lagoon Salon Incident
DCI Steven WILLIAMS: Metropolitan Police Service – DPS Specialist Investigations
DI Brian LUCAS: Metropolitan Police Service – SCD8
DI Katie LILBURN: Metropolitan Police Service – Strategic Firearms Commander
Dr Desmond VANHINSBERGH: Expert Witness – Body Fluids
Dr Michael BARBER: Expert Witness – Fingerprints
Dr Philip SEAMAN: Expert Witness – Ballistics
Dr Simon POOLE: Expert Witness – Pathologist
Dr William GLAZEBROOK: Helicopter Emergency Medical Service Doctor
DS Andrew BELFIELD: Metropolitan Police Service – Lagoon Salon Incident
DS Christopher HANNIGAN: Metropolitan Police Service – Search Team Leader
DS Paul DEMPSEY: Metropolitan Police Service – SCD8 Trident
DSupt Fiona MALLON: Metropolitan Police Service – Strategic Firearms Commander
DSupt Neil EVANS: Metropolitan Police Service – SC&O19 Post Incident Manager (Base)
DSupt Tony NASH: Metropolitan Police Service – SCD8 Trident Post Incident Manager
Insp Brian ELLIOTT: Metropolitan Police Service – Specialist Firearms Operations
Insp Caroline SAUNDERS: Metropolitan Police Service – Borough Duty Officer
Insp Paula MUGGLESTONE: Metropolitan Police Service – PolSA Search Advisor
Inspector U3: Metropolitan Police Service – In Relation to the Anonymous Letter
Miss J: Civilian Witness
Mr Ajaz MIR: Civilian Witness – Employee of Taxi Firm
Mr Andrew BELL: Metropolitan Police Service – Forensic Scientist – blood spatter
Mr Clive BURCHETT: Expert Witness - Imagery
Mr Colin HODGE: Civilian Witness – Vehicle Recovery
Mr Colin SPARROW: Independent Police Complaints Commission – Lead Investigator
Mr Darren BIGGS: Civilian Witness
Mr David BRENNECKE: London Ambulance Service Paramedic and Duty Station Officer
Mr David CUNNINGHAM: Metropolitan Police Service – Forensic Vehicle Pound Officer –
Mr David KIRKPATRICK: Independent Police Complaints Commission – Investigator
Mr Emil DRZEWIECKI: Civilian Witness (with interpreter)
Mr Finbar HANRAHAN: Civilian Witness
Mr Franco TOMEI: Metropolitan Police Service – Forensic Scientist - Ballistics
Mr Gareth JONES: Independent Police Complaints Commission – Investigator
Mr Gary ARKLESS: Metropolitan Police Service – Digital and Electronic Forensic Analyst
Mr Ian RICHARDS: Metropolitan Police Service – Forensic Scientist - Fingerprints
Mr John COCKRAM: Metropolitan Police Service – Crime Scene Manager
Mr John SLAUGHTER: Expert Witness – Toxicology
Mr Jonathan ORFORD: Metropolitan Police Service – Crime Scene Examiner
Mr Kevin HUTCHINSON FOSTER: Civilian witness
Mr Kieran ELY O’CARROLL: Civilian Witness
Mr Luke CLOW: Civilian Witness
Mr Malcolm NOTT: Metropolitan Police Service – Crime Scene Manager
Mr Mark BOWDEN: Expert Witness – Firearms Discharge Residue
Mr Marlon DUGGAN: Brother of Mark Duggan
Mr Michael VAUGHAN: Metropolitan Police Service – Forensic Scientist - Ballistics
Mr Mohammad ASIF: Civilian Witness – Owner of Taxi Firm
Mr Neil JOHNSTONE: Independent Police Complaints Commission – Intelligence Analyst
Mr Nicholas GOLDSMITH: Civilian Witness – Vehicle Recovery
Mr Nino HAMADOUCHE: Civilian Witness
Mr Norman GRODENTZ: Civilian Witness
Mr Paul MARTIN: Metropolitan Police Service – Forensic Vehicle Pound Officer
Mr Richard NOBLE THOMPSON: Civilian Witness
Mr Richard OMOTOSHO: Independent Police Complaints Commission– Investigator
Mr Valentine McGUIRE: Civilian Witness
Mrs Pamela DUGGAN: Mother of Mark Duggan
Ms Angela SHAW: Expert Witness – Firearms Discharge Residue
Ms Anna-Marie O’CONNOR: Expert Witness - Fibres
Ms April BARTER: London Ambulance Service Paramedic
Ms Giedre TILINSKAITE: Civilian Witness
Ms Jacqueline LANDAIS: Metropolitan Police Service – Forensic Scientist - Fingerprints
Ms Nicola HELEY: Independent Police Complaints Commission - Investigator
Ms Patricia LARRIGAN: Metropolitan Police Service – Crime Scene Manager
Ms Saranjeet KHERA: Metropolitan Police Service – Forensic Scientist - DNA
Ms Semone WILSON: Partner of Mark Duggan
Officer A10: National Crime Agency (Serious and Organised Crime Agency)
Officer B17: Metropolitan Police Service – Surveillance Team Leader
Officer B22: Metropolitan Police Service – Surveillance Team
Officer Gary RENNLES: Metropolitan Police Service – SC&O19
Officer Q63: Metropolitan Police Service – SC&O19
Officer R31: Metropolitan Police Service – SC&O19
Officer R68: Metropolitan Police Service – SC&O19
Officer V48: Metropolitan Police Service – SC&O19
Officer V53: Metropolitan Police Service – SC&O19
Officer V59: Metropolitan Police Service – Operational Firearms Commander and Tactical Advisor
Officer W39: Metropolitan Police Service – SC&O19
Officer W42: Metropolitan Police Service – SC&O19 Deputy Team Leader to Officer V59
Officer W42: Metropolitan Police Service – SC&O19 Deputy Team Leader to Officer V59
Officer W56: Metropolitan Police Service – SC&O19
Officer W70: Metropolitan Police Service – SC&O19
Officer Z51: Metropolitan Police Service – Tactical Firearms Commander
Officer ZZ17: Metropolitan Police Service – SCD8 Trident (Bronze briefing)
Officer ZZ37: Metropolitan Police Service – SCD8 Trident (Bronze intelligence)
Officer ZZ46: Metropolitan Police Service – SCD8 Trident (Bronze intelligence)
Officer ZZ50: Metropolitan Police Service – SCD8 Trident
Officer ZZ63: Metropolitan Police Service – SCD8 Trident
Officer ZZ75: Metropolitan Police Service – SCD8 Trident
PC Christopher ALLEN: Metropolitan Police Service – Territorial Support Group
PC Dan GIBSON: Metropolitan Police Service – Armed Response Vehicle Officer
PC Gareth HUGHES: Metropolitan Police Service – Armed Response Vehicle Officer
PC Jim FOWLER: Metropolitan Police Service – Armed Response Vehicle Officer
PC Paul CHRISTIANSEN: Metropolitan Police Service – Armed Response Vehicle Officer –
PC Paul FITZGIBBON: Metropolitan Police Service – Search Team
PC Richard GREEN: Metropolitan Police Service – Armed Response Vehicle Officer
PC Scott NICHOLLS: Metropolitan Police Service – Search Team
PC Steve HARTSHORN: Metropolitan Police Service – Armed Response Vehicle Officer / Police Federation Representative
PC Steven RAINFORD: Metropolitan Police Service – Search Team
Prof Col Jonathan CLASPER: Expert Witness - Surgeon
Prof Derrick POUNDER: Expert Witness - Pathologist
Prof Robert FORREST: Expert Witness – Toxicology
PS Danny WARNER: Metropolitan Police Service – Cordon
PS Stephen BOSWELL: Metropolitan Police Service – Cordon
Supt Shaun DOWE: Metropolitan Police Service – SC&O19 Post Incident Manager (Scene)
T/Supt Mick FOOTE: Metropolitan Police Service – Senior Investigating Officer Op Dibri
T/Supt Simon DOBINSON: Metropolitan Police Service – Chief Firearms Instructor
TAXI DRIVER: Civilian witness (with interpreter)
The Daughter of Miss J: Civilian Witness
V72: Metropolitan Police Service – SC&O19
W39: Metropolitan Police Service – SC&O19
Witness A: Civilian Witness – BBC Video Footage
Witness B: Civilian Witness – BBC Video Footage
Witness C: BBC Journalist
Witness Z: Civilian Witness