Greenlizard0 Weekend Football Thread ** spoilers ** [1st - 4th February 2014]

[drunkenmaster]

Where's the antiquated part, just out of interest?
I can see different but that's about it

They don't say antiquated, it's implied. Anyone paying attention around Europe would be able to roughly tell/say that, "old" football training was doing laps around a pitch, smoking and drinking beer

Seriously though the "modern" method of football training is the do everything with a ball. everything is about ball control, not physical training, not brute strength, technical training.

For donkeys years England was and still is seen as rather backwards compared to the technical training adopted by Holland, Spain, Germany, Belgium. The old school english style of running till you drop then play a training game every now and then, vs the new style of getting your physical/fitness training mostly by actually playing football, with everything being about technical training, constantly passing.

So every time someone says now it's all about the football, before it used to be about fitness... it's saying the same thing, it's antiquated.

Utd look far less good across the pitch, passing, shooting, penalties( ), every part of their game is worse.

What Danny keeps ignoring when he bangs on about finishing in the same position, is people are simply saying Everton are playing better football, better football isn't always more successful, this is a leap that Danny and no one else is making. Of course, I've never seen a physical team get to where Everton are, then improve towards or into the top 4. We consistently see better footballing teams make that move.

Will Everton, no, not without a new stadium or a sugar daddy(both really due to ffp now), but regardless, they are playing better football and training methods is just one part of that.

 

[Nate75]

Googling "Moyes" and "antiquated" just brings up results about an antiquated squad.

Moyes has to go. I have not seen anything to suggest he was the right man for the job before or since his appointment.

He has so much, too much on his plate... So many factors involved for one man, even the right man just now to deal with.

And as Castiel pointed out earlier. The Glazers will not suffer the £££ losses.

 

[drunkenmaster]

made me laugh, but in reality, Fergie did that as well, due to injuries but still. I'm not sure what other option he had.


SEriously though, Man Utd need to fix the CB's. Fergie saw Rio/Vidic coming to an end and bought two promising english CB's... nothing wrong with that. The issue is they're constantly in and out of the team due to injuries. Had they played 120 games in the past 3 years, they would have improved significantly over time and been a better partnership. In reality due to their and others injuries they are in a different position almost every other game, Smalling hasn't managed more than 14 league starts in a season at Utd. Even if they'd improved they may/may not have been good enough, but they'd be good cover.

Utd have to buy two world class CB's, show Rio the door, maybe Vidic too. There is no problem buying Mata, but he's the last piece of the puzzle, they need to fix the spine of the team. Two CB's, two CM's and a DM, and probably a striker too.

 

[JohnnyG]

It's just one source, in the actual spoken interview (which I cannot find) he talked about new techniques, modern tactical awareness and training schedules being bought in at Everton during the preseason as opposed to the old school principles employed by their former staff...within the others you can build a picture of the overall criticisms being made by multiple players and coaches. There is an example with regard to RVP where Alex Ferguson stated that he had no issues with RVP's fitness as both the Arsenal and Dutch fitness specialists had identified a regime which Manchester United can work with that uses new techniques...if we follow what coaches and players such as mentioned above has said then it appears that Moyes has decided against this...in any case, the tactics and fitness of the players themselves so far are a testament to those criticisms...whether you believe them or not.

I'm not in to building pictures or implications as they involve opinions which can't be used as facts, just in to actual events and as far as I can see there's zero evidence that Moyes uses antiquated training techniques, just different to what Man.U. players are used to

 

[Nate75]

he's got "interim" written all over him imo

 

[Castiel]

Googling "Moyes" and "antiquated" just brings up results about an antiquated squad.

Antiquated is my term, just meaning old school....

 

[dannyjo22]

Where's the antiquated part, just out of interest?
I can see different but that's about it

And tactics. Basically he made it up. None of the stuff he mentions or links mentions anything other than training being different.

Wow really, I'm horrified it's different.

The words of this one Fitness coach that's got nothing to go on has started this. Now everyone thinks they are an expert of RVPs fitness routine. He had 12-18 months tops where he's been fit and all of a sudden he's the bench mark.

It's laughable.

 

[Castiel]

I'm not in to building pictures or implications as they involve opinions which can't be used as facts, just in to actual events and as far as I can see there's zero evidence that Moyes uses antiquated training techniques, just different to what Man.U. players are used to

Then that is obviously your opinion...albeit not one shared by quite a few people who have far better experience both first hand and professionally of such training techniques than either of us. Terms like 'Old School' are readily used by both players and coaches, even Moyes himself.

I think you would need to be blind not to see the results on the pitch or the vastly increased incidence of training injuries and lack of fitness levels at Utd and decreased injuries and increased fitness levels at Everton.

 

[Castiel]

And tactics. Basically he made it up.

Actually I didn't, but don't let the facts get in the way of your opinion now will you....it is hardly any big secret that David Moyes is renowned for his Old School approach to training and tactics is it?

 

[dannyjo22]

increased incidence of training injuries and lack of fitness levels at Utd and decreased injuries and increased fitness levels at Everton.

Come on then give me all this information youi have on Evertons injuries under Moyes and Evertons lack of injuries under Martinez. I could do with a laugh, it's been a rough day. Tell me all about our training injuries under moyes.

 

[dannyjo22]

Actually I didn't, but don't let the facts get in the way of your opinion now will you....

The way some people try to deflect when they are caught out making **** up is funny. You're much to clever for me and I don't have the patience to go round in circles while you skirt round your BS statement about antiquated training and tactics quoted by players.

 

[JohnnyG]

Then that is obviously your opinion...albeit not one shared by quite a few people who have far better experience both first hand and professionally of such training techniques than either of us. Terms like 'Old School' are readily used by both players and coaches, even Moyes himself.

I think you would need to be blind not to see the results on the pitch or the vastly increased incidence of training injuries and lack of fitness levels at Utd and decreased injuries and increased fitness levels at Everton.

I've seen the results on the pitch and have enjoyed them thoroughly
It's not my opinion at all as as yet there's not enough evidence to form one as far as I'm concerned. Moyes may have different training techniques that some don't like but that hardly makes them antiquated and I still can't see anyone else calling them that.
At the end of the day I love what he's doing

 

[Castiel]

Come on then give me all this information youi have on Evertons injuries under Moyes and Evertons lack of injuries under Martinez. I could do with a laugh, it's been a rough day. Tell me all about our training injuries under moyes.

United have had a lot of training ground injuries this season...Nani, RVP, Rooney, Welbeck, Young, Kagawa and Jones are just some of the players sustaining injuries outside of match day.

On the other hand Everton have had fewer injuries sustained outside of match day than under most of Moyes tenure.

 

[Jambo]

In the second last tweet Verheijen refers to pre-historic training methods. Among some other classics!

 

[Castiel]

The way some people try to deflect when they are caught out making **** up is funny. You're much to clever for me and I don't have the patience to go round in circles while you skirt round your BS statement about antiquated training and tactics quoted by players.

Here is an analysis of Moyes last season in charge of Everton...where they speak about how the increased match time in preseason limited the 'antiquated' training that the club usually go through during preseason...this was echoed by Fellaini in his comments, when he spoke about Moyes returning to Old School Principles on his appointment to Manchester..(which is simply another way of saying antiquated). And further expressed by Verheijen (dinosaur) and Rio and Jagielka (Old School).

Everton played six friendlies this past pre-season, in which they fielded close to their strongest available team in almost every game. The fringe players had time on the park, but mostly David Moyes used his best XI. Usually they enter seasons after several weeks of antiquated training, involving double (or even triple) training sessions, runs in the mountains, or running laps. Whilst they still did a fair amount of this type of training this year, they had more games with their best side on the pitch to build chemistry and game time is always preferable to training for the players. These regular friendlies meant more recovery and off-days, and the squad have entered this season looking fresh, instead of fatigued and over-trained. Everton certainly looked a lot fitter than Manchester United in their opening week win.

http://www.football-analysis.com/everton-great-start-to-season/

 

[Castiel]

I've seen the results on the pitch and have enjoyed them thoroughly
It's not my opinion at all as as yet there's not enough evidence to form one as far as I'm concerned. Moyes may have different training techniques that some don't like but that hardly makes them antiquated and I still can't see anyone else calling them that.
At the end of the day I love what he's doing

Obviously not a Utd supporter.

In any case the players look fatigued and their heads are down, especially toward the end of games..this is new for United who historically have had exceptional fitness and stamina as a team...as evidenced last season with so many late time winners. This season they look too knackered to press like they used to at the end of matches. They are picking up niggling injuries and the observations of overtraining are increasingly common.

It is also pretty common criticism, even before leaving Everton that Moyes is very old school in his approach.

 

[G|mp]

This is boring, can we move on please?

 

[Castiel]

This is boring, can we move on please?

How about potential Moyes replacements?

 

[Nate75]

The obvious targets are gone now.

 

[dannyjo22]

this is new for United who historically have had exceptional fitness and stamina as a team.

And yet your little cherry picked google quote says Everton looked much fitter than United at the start of last season. The cherry picking missed out twice that article says Everton just had much better technical footballer that year.

And yet Moyes Everton sides nearly always kicked on after Christmas, so fitness was not an issue. The way he had us pressure and defend takes vast amounts of stamina in comparison to playing with the ball and having more possession.

I didn't like his style, I will be happy when he goes from United so we can all stop hearing about it but people are constantly looking for any soundbite they can nod along to without even caring the credentials and credibility of who is saying it.

95% of the United Supporters on this forum used to call for Fergies head and call him tactically inept. There's no hope for anyone else.

Whats happening is exactly what I predicted would happen, I predicted in the Fergie threads years back that moyes would be United manager and following fergie wouldn't last long. No one would, so they appoint someone cheap to take the blame and then move on.

I guarantee when the top quality manager comes in, people will still cry he's not mourinho. Oh well I will let you get back to googling antiquated to see what comes up next.