Sanctions to hit part time workers

[elmarko]

Nobody said it's pleasant, but if you don't like it, get a better job. And you might struggle, but that's life.

This is my point. If you don't earn much you ain't gonna live that well. Stands to reason. Don't like it, earn more.

Not everybody can get a better job - only a certain number of well paid jobs exist, you are also forgetting that we still need people to do these jobs which are paid less.

All some are suggesting is that these jobs which are required should perhaps be paid an amount at such a level the government doesn't have to give welfare to top it up.

Is it really so hard for you to understand?.

 

[spankingtexan]

1. Yes

2. I live in zone 4 for i don't pay 100's to get into the centre of London to work, I pay £170 a month. or £1800 per year (saving me a further £20 per month) But most shops aren't in Centre London. They're all over the capital and for most people that work in shops it's a bus ride to the nearest shopping complex.

3. The government isn't pushing for a living wage, they are against it, and i agree with them. Personally i think wages are where they should be. You want more money? Get through uni, get skilled, and get a decent job.

So from that statement can I take it London unemployed couldn't realistically chase a minimum wage shop job in the centre of London?

Would you consider it acceptable to sanction a person for not being able to afford to apply for such a job? bear in mind jobcentre staff wouldn't consider your explanation as reasonable.

 

[Caged]

Must be nice to live in your world where life is so simple with absolutely no complications that might prevent someone from doing this.

In what might appear as a shock I do agree with the point made at a fundamental level - if you want to improve then you can't wait around for someone else to do it for you. However, I don't think current policy encourages improvement at all, it just punishes not improving.

When there was a target of 50% of people attending university (I'm aware this wasn't a Tory policy, but it was a government one) people went off to run up overdrafts on the promise of a land of rainbows and sunshine when they left. Those people have every right to be a bit miffed when it turns out they can't even work full time in a DIY shop. Maybe they did inappropriate degrees that weren't really desirable to employers, but they were legally children when they made those choices and it's easy to see them as a mistake in hindsight.

 

[robgmun]

I said into London - not between zones. (the point being if people are not going to be aided to cover the additional cost of living in London, the wage would not be sufficient.).

You're making up situations which doesn't exist. A vast majorty of shops in London (i'd say at least 90%+) are staffed by people no more than a bus ride away.

 

[Frightful Boar]

The "get a decent job" argument just isn't a valid one. There are more people than there are jobs, full stop. That's jobs of any sort, crap ones, part-time ones, etc.

The economy simply needs fewer people - there's only so many Costas and restaurants that are required, and if they are paying a survivable wage instead of a living one then there's a knock-on effect to people employed in leisure activities. I would love for government policy to plan to address this, as full employment will never be a reality no matter how hard you want to hit people.

Do you think the guy who made millions from Costa thought "the world doesn't need another sub-par coffee shop, so I'll just whinge like a little girl about how unfair things are"?

Nope, he/she went out and created something. Unless you think that person is intrinsically better than you, you can do the same.

It's not the government's job to give you a job, you give them a job.

Must be nice to live in your world where life is so simple with absolutely no complications that might prevent someone from doing this.

I didn't say it was simple. I say it's possible. A person can wallow in self-pity or make something of themselves.

You have people crippled in accidents who go on to make millions. Some chick on television had acid chucked in her face. She could have folded like a loser but she pulled herself together to be a TV presenter type thing. What's your excuse?

 

[spookywillow]

But explain how? You can't afford to pay to learn so can't get a better job. Hardly any social housing as it was sold off and nothing built to replace it. More training schemes taken away by the government.

The low skilled and the poor and being made to rely on benefits etc and penalise them for doing so.

Give me a way of learning a new skill that will secure me a job instead of giving me money to constantly fill out pointless forms to hand back to the jobcenter that do nothing with them except decide if your getting sanctioned not.

I'm not against working hard at all but they really are not helping anyone.

 

[Woden]

There aren't enough decent jobs to go around, not by a long shot. Any training they get would be wasted money they already cannot afford

We also need street sweepers, bog cleaners, shelf stackers. Maybe 10% of those can make it to management, not through lack of skill but through lack of need of managers. Are we really to condemn the other 90% to a live of reletive poverty?

 

[Frightful Boar]

Not everybody can get a better job - only a certain number of well paid jobs exist, you are also forgetting that we still need people to do these jobs which are paid less.

All some are suggesting is that these jobs which are required should perhaps be paid an amount at such a level the government doesn't have to give welfare to top it up.

Is it really so hard for you to understand?.

Back with the internet cliches. Someone doesn't agree with me, I'll accuse them of not understanding.

How many times have I got to say "jobs don't create themselves, people create them"?

I will admit though that lazy people don't create them.

 

[Caged]

Taking the street sweeper argument, as you raise the retirement age you effectively block the path for people to move up in that role, meaning more years potentially not making any NI contributions and therefore not qualifying for a state pension anyway.

We are storing up a huge amount of problems for our future.

With regards to job creation, consumer demand creates jobs. No business owner is going to employ someone because they have some spare cash, they wait until they absolutely need another pair of hands and then try and acquire those hands for as little outlay as possible. If there aren't people in a position to purchase the goods or services on offer then that business doesn't exist. For this reason it's absolutely vital to ensure people have enough money to be able to afford 'extras', not just exist.

 

[mmj_uk]

It all just seems like an attempt to bypass minimum wage laws and create a cheap workforce so that we can compete with China etc.

I suspect the government are more concerned about adding to its workfare workforce so that more businesses have access to free labour than cutting the benefits bill, you won't be able to find a full time minimum wage job soon enough.

 

[elmarko]

Back with the internet cliches. Someone doesn't agree with me, I'll accuse them of not understanding.

How many times have I got to say "jobs don't create themselves, people create them"?

I will admit though that lazy people don't create them.

People create jobs to meet existing demand or cultivate demand in new areas (but at the expense of other business areas).

I fail to see how you arguing against a point I never made (that jobs create themselves) explains how everybody can get a better job when a limited supply of good jobs exist.

 

[bliss]

You have people crippled in accidents who go on to make millions. Some chick on television had acid chucked in her face. She could have folded like a loser but she pulled herself together to be a TV presenter type thing. What's your excuse?

You're living in a fantasy world if you think stories like that are a common occurrence.

 

[pitchfork]

A london living wage is pitched at £16931.2 per year, which is the same as the avarage 1st line IT support for a young lackey fresh from college/uni. Personally i don't see that as fair that a unskilled shop worker should be paid the same as someone who put in the graft to get through uni and has intelligance

And before you start bleat on about how the IT support guy should be paid more then, where's the money going to come from? Raise wages too high and business will not be able to hire more because it's way too expensive.

The difference is a uni grad/ IT lacky isn't going to be on that wage forever, odds are they're single or a young couple without children and in like to earn significantly more over their career.

Someone working a minimum wage job is more than likely, going to need to provide for their family on a lower wage than that, it's about giving a fair contribution for the work done. Not "Hey let's have the bin man buy a new car every 5 years" but a wage upon which someone can support a family - ie. Provide a shelter of some kind and put food on the table.

Businesses hire only minimal amounts of workers, if they had to hire more, it wouldn't mean they go bust, it would mean the owners would make a slightly lower profit - cost of business comes with the territory, if you don't like it, don't go into business!

And before you rabble on - I am a business owner.

Yes I have in fact. I once lived in a rented flat, doing a menial job, didn't have a TV, my food bill was £12 a week and my entertainment came from library books.

You sound like a right lazy, whining, excuse-maker who can't face his shortcomings.

You sound like an assuming arsebiscuit, I've got an extremely well paid job and 3 successful businesses under my belt. I was lucky, I came from a working class family and was lucky to have the opportunity to do my first degree, and I took it from there.

No personal attacks!

In this life, it isn't about how hard you work, I work my ass off but then again so do the line workers crunching overtime like anything, it's about luck and circumstance.

You failed to answer my question.
How is someone on minimum wage doing a 60 hour week supposed to retrain?

 

[wozzizname]

As for these comments about pushing yourself, getting qualified and climbing the ladder - that may have been the case, but these days there are graduates a plenty with no graduate level jobs to go to. If the new grads are doing the minimum wage jobs, what's left for the less qualified ?

 

[Frightful Boar]

People create jobs to meet existing demand or cultivate demand in new areas (but at the expense of other business areas).

I fail to see how you arguing against a point I never made (that jobs create themselves) explains how everybody can get a better job when a limited supply of good jobs exist.

Of course you fail to see.

I didn't say you made that point, but that's another tactic used by people like you.

If you can't get a better job, then make one for yourself. If there are no better jobs to get, make one yourself.

Does that make it easier for you to "see"?

Luckily some people have ambition. We'd be stuck in the Dark Ages if it was left to you lot

 

[Burnsy2023]

I don't think much of your racist picture, but yes I'm saying that.

No, no it's not racist.

 

[FuriousGeorge]

Do you think the guy who made millions from Costa thought "the world doesn't need another sub-par coffee shop, so I'll just whinge like a little girl about how unfair things are"?

Nope, he/she went out and created something. Unless you think that person is intrinsically better than you, you can do the same.

It's not the government's job to give you a job, you give them a job.



I didn't say it was simple. I say it's possible. A person can wallow in self-pity or make something of themselves.

You have people crippled in accidents who go on to make millions. Some chick on television had acid chucked in her face. She could have folded like a loser but she pulled herself together to be a TV presenter type thing. What's your excuse?

No one has said its not possible, but not everyone is the same and can make something out of nothing. People are different, which is what you seem to be unable to understand. Not everyone has the same opportunities in life.

You can of course help people to become better skilled and move up the pay scale, but a lot of the time they will need support and guidance to do this. If the government wont help, then they can for example take a paid course, but on £6 an hour its hard to see where they could get the money to pay for this from.

Also, you seem to misunderstand how an business works. Take the Costa example. You need lower paid staff to serve customers, clean the shops/toilets etc. And its impossible for them all to move up the ladder as its going to become quite cramped at the top, what with all the management types and no-one serving customers by the end.

But what you can do is ensure those stuck at the lower end of the pay scale at least are paid enough to live on. And in any case the more disposable income they have, the more they have to spend on coffee (or whatever), which in turn drives demand.

 

[Hagar]

The original complaint on this thread was that people are to be penalised if they do not work enough hours. It is not the responsibility of the government to create jobs. Rather that they create an economy and environment which enables businesses to flourish and businesses create jobs.
If people are content to work only 20 hours and top up on benefits, it is not a proper environment for business and the government would need to react to reduce the incentive to do this.
The government have said that they would welcome the minimum wage to rise substantially towards £7 as this will reduce the need to top up earnings through in work benefits, something that I agree with.
People I know are on 15 hour contracts and actually work 39 hours most weeks. This provides for a reasonable standard of living if without some luxuries.

 

[Frightful Boar]

You're living in a fantasy world if you think stories like that are a common occurrence.

I don't think that because the vast majority of people are awful.

You sound like an assuming arsebiscuit, I've got an extremely well paid job and 3 successful businesses under my belt. I was lucky, I came from a working class family and was lucky to have the opportunity to do my first degree, and I took it from there.

In this life, it isn't about how hard you work, I work my ass off but then again so do the line workers crunching overtime like anything, it's about luck and circumstance.

You failed to answer my question.
How is someone on minimum wage doing a 60 hour week supposed to retrain?

An arsebiscuit? I doubt that you've had three successful businesses under your belt when you're evidently 13 years old.

To answer your question, I don't know. That's not my problem. I did it.

Here's how. Did an inappropriate degree, got an unrelated bottom level job, worked my ass off, got promoted a few times, got paid off, used my redundancy to pay for a business degree, set up my own business, sold it, used my experience to get a job I like.

Nothing there everyone else couldn't do.

 

[elmarko]

If you can't get a better job, then make one for yourself. If there are no better jobs to get, make one yourself.

There is not enough demand in the market to match hundreds of thousands of small business start-ups (they are niche, not able to compete for mainstream products due to the benefits of mass production/large corporations) - you also are still ignoring the fact we need people to work in these jobs which are currently underpaid.

You are grossly over-simplifying the realities of the situation.

I don't think that because the vast majority of people are awful.

An arsebiscuit? I doubt that you've had three successful businesses under your belt when you're evidently 13 years old.

To answer your question, I don't know. That's not my problem. I did it.

Here's how. Did an inappropriate degree, got an unrelated bottom level job, worked my ass off, got promoted a few times, got paid off, used my redundancy to pay for a business degree, set up my own business, sold it, used my experience to get a job I like.

Nothing there everyone else couldn't do.

This is where you are going wrong.

You incorrectly assume that effort has a direct guaranteed relationship with success - it doesn't, also not everybody get's the opportunity to get a big fat redundancy payout (some people have to leave an existing job).

As pitchfork correctly stated, his hard work combined with an element of chance/circumstance allowed him to succeed - effort alone doesn't always result in success.

I myself have done very well for myself considering my age, but I don't feel the need to claim credit for circumstances (for some adversity, others assistance) which allowed me to succeed outside of my control. You are a huge walking fallacy of the 'self-made man'.

“Witness the American ideal: the Self-Made Man”, he said. “But there is no such person. If we can stand on our own two feet, it is because others have raised us up.

If, as adults, we can lay claim to competence and compassion, it only means that other human beings have been willing and enabled to commit their competence and compassion to us—through infancy, childhood, and adolescence, right up to this very moment.” - Urie Bronfenbrenner,