Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

[RedvGreen]

Not quite sure what else you can do though - can't uninvent nuclear weapons sadly.

But seriously though, if Russia wanted to steamroll Eastern Europe, they have Nuclear capability. The issue then becomes one of :

1. Do we let them steamroll us and go down without a fight to avoid Nukes being used;

Or

2. Do we fight militarily and risk it escalating to nukes (as Putin loves escalation)?


If we use military versus their military, Russia will undoubtedly exhibit the same lack of appreciation for human life as they've done in history, and will just let thousands die needlessly. Perhaps even to the point where they will throw some troops at NATO/UN, test their stance, then bring out the big guns.

Fact is, Russia is huge, and to tactically target each area would be impossible with the current prevalence of western nukes. Whereas just 2-3 nukes could take out pretty much every none-US country in EU.

 

[scorza]

They could meet first thing tomorrow and Putin wouldn't give a stuff.

The idea is you have a meeting and agree a response. Then Putin may or may not give a stuff.

They have been cheering his name in Red Square just.

Yes, I thought it reminiscent of the crowd at Hitler's Munich address.

 

[Judgeneo]

Not sur you understand the situation in hand tbh. Russia want to invade Crimea to keep Crimea. Which country did we last invade, in the ME or elsewhere that we wanted to keep as a colony ?

Arguably we SHOULD have kept the countries we invaded - look at the state they are all in now... We could have developed them up and maintained the peace.
But colonialism is bad eh. Better just invade, kill thousands, destroy their civilisations and call it job done.

 

[deuse]

Iraq being the main one which was almost universally denounced by the worlds governments.

WE kinda just ignored them all and did it any way, hey what do you know other people copied our lead.

Afghanistan was slightly more accepted however but still widely condemned.

Don't forget Libya. They only invaded Libya because they was going to sell the oil in Euros and not dollars.

 

[Danthus]

I don't see Cameron and Obama getting all Boston Legal when Israel break international law.

 

[scorza]

Don't forget Libya. They only invaded Libya because they was going to sell the oil in Euros and not dollars.

Who invaded Libya I recall air-strikes against the Gaddafi regime but no boots on the ground.

 

[areksnumbr1sxylady]

Who invaded Libya I recall air-strikes against the Gaddafi regime but no boots on the ground.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/mar/06/liam-fox-sas-unit-libya

 

[Rroff]

But seriously though, if Russia wanted to steamroll Eastern Europe, they have Nuclear capability. The issue then becomes one of :

1. Do we let them steamroll us and go down without a fight to avoid Nukes being used;

Or

2. Do we fight militarily and risk it escalating to nukes (as Putin loves escalation)?


If we use military versus their military, Russia will undoubtedly exhibit the same lack of appreciation for human life as they've done in history, and will just let thousands die needlessly. Perhaps even to the point where they will throw some troops at NATO/UN, test their stance, then bring out the big guns.

Fact is, Russia is huge, and to tactically target each area would be impossible with the current prevalence of western nukes. Whereas just 2-3 nukes could take out pretty much every none-US country in EU.

Hence NATO (in theory).

 

[Malevolence]

Some images.

Russian Hind obverses Ukrainian Forces

Spoiler

Ukrainian Forces dig in.

Spoiler

Russian naval Infantry outside an unkown base. (Check out that VSS )

Spoiler

Russian Soldier watching Ukrainian shipping.

Spoiler

Russian D30 battery deployed in Crimea.

Spoiler

 

[badcompany]

But seriously though, if Russia wanted to steamroll Eastern Europe, they have Nuclear capability. The issue then becomes one of :

1. Do we let them steamroll us and go down without a fight to avoid Nukes being used;

Or

2. Do we fight militarily and risk it escalating to nukes (as Putin loves escalation)?


If we use military versus their military, Russia will undoubtedly exhibit the same lack of appreciation for human life as they've done in history, and will just let thousands die needlessly. Perhaps even to the point where they will throw some troops at NATO/UN, test their stance, then bring out the big guns.

Fact is, Russia is huge, and to tactically target each area would be impossible with the current prevalence of western nukes. Whereas just 2-3 nukes could take out pretty much every none-US country in EU.

nuclear war will not happen, it would be the end of everything.

 

[elmarko]

Russia does it, invasion - we do it liberation.

Force attacks a government we like - terrorists, force attacks a government we don't like - freedom fighters.

It's a shame none of the news agencies involved can be trusted at all, as if a majority of the people of Crimea do want to join Russia then should we not be respecting their right to self-determination?.

 

[The Running Man]

Iraq being the main one which was almost universally denounced by the worlds governments.

WE kinda just ignored them all and did it any way, hey what do you know other people copied our lead.

Afghanistan was slightly more accepted however but still widely condemned.

Iraq... this is a tough cookie. Arguably we were just finishing the job we should have finished in 1991. I don't know whether the PM's were misled or whether they wanted to be misled by the intelligence services, but are you suggesting that saddam was a good or fair leader?

Afganistan? Well, Russia have prior here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_in_Afghanistan

 

[T345]

Iraq... this is a tough cookie. Arguably we were just finishing the job we should have finished in 1991. I don't know whether the PM's were misled or whether they wanted to be misled by the intelligence services, but are you suggesting that saddam was a good or fair leader?

Afganistan? Well, Russia have prior here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_in_Afghanistan

To be honest, Soviets in Afghanistan were a lot better than the Taliban/ Mujahideen.

 

[The Running Man]

Don't forget Libya. They only invaded Libya because they was going to sell the oil in Euros and not dollars.

Technically we didn't 'invade' Libya, we just assisted the rebels in getting rid of Ghadaffi.

Arguably we SHOULD have kept the countries we invaded - look at the state they are all in now... We could have developed them up and maintained the peace.
But colonialism is bad eh. Better just invade, kill thousands, destroy their civilisations and call it job done.

I guess the issue is not for me to uphold or resolve. If Muslims literally hate each other and will war to infinity, (Sunni–Shia) then im not sure what we can do?

We can replace a leader who is unelected, lives in a lush palace whilst the rest of his country is in poverty and rules with an iron fist, killing any opponents so that the Islamics don't dare step out of line. is that better? Or can the muslims actually live coherently and peacefully with each other?

Would it matter who was in power, or would we have had to install another killer leader who was prepared to completely subjugate his own people just to stop violence from spilling out onto the streets? If you want to talk intolerance Islam and Islamic states are the place to go. Simple as really. We (the west) cannot fix a broken ideology.

I cannot answer that question.

 

[scorza]

Russia does it, invasion - we do it liberation.

Force attacks a government we like - terrorists, force attacks a government we don't like - freedom fighters.

It's a shame none of the news agencies involved can be trusted at all, as if a majority of the people of Crimea do want to join Russia then should we not be respecting their right to self-determination?.

The news agencies that can't be trusted at all - would they be the same ones that were extremely vocal in their criticism of the Iraq war? Can you only not trust them when they don't back up your own view of the world?

I'm surprised at you trying to legitimise the referendum - I thought you were more cynical than that, it's been exposed as a sham many times: http://blogs.fco.gov.uk/robinbarnett/2014/03/18/crimea-a-sham-referendum/

To be clear, the referendum:

• violates the Ukrainian Constitution, which clearly stipulates that the status of any part of the country’s territory can only be changed as a result of a nationwide referendum;

• resulted from Russian interference given that Crimea has been under military occupation for several weeks by Russian armed forces, which have installed a pro-Russian puppet administration without a popular mandate;

• was not properly prepared. The time frame was shortened twice and there was no transparency whatsoever over procedures;

• was unfair because it failed to offer Crimeans the option of backing the status quo in terms of Crimea’s existing status within Ukraine;

• could not be properly verified due to the absence of either international or domestic impartial observers or a proper monitoring process.

 

[deuse]

Technically we didn't 'invade' Libya, we just assisted the rebels in getting rid of Ghadaffi..

There is one born every minute "we just assisted the rebels "

America loves you.

 

[Jono8]

The news agencies that can't be trusted at all - would they be the same ones that were extremely vocal in their criticism of the Iraq war? Can you only not trust them when they don't back up your own view of the world?

I'm surprised at you trying to legitimise the referendum - I thought you were more cynical than that, it's been exposed as a sham many times: http://blogs.fco.gov.uk/robinbarnett/2014/03/18/crimea-a-sham-referendum/

So which parts of their constitution are they going to abide by then? I have read that Ukraine's constitution says it needs a 75% majority from Parliament to oust the current leader but they only actually got 72%....

Therefore the removal of Yanukovych was illegal as well...

 

[The Running Man]

There is one born every minute "we just assisted the rebels "

America loves you.

Its not about being fly or flippant. Do you see a US flag flying over Tripoli? Did we invade or occupy the country?

 

[Danthus]

Its not about being fly or flippant. Do you see a US flag flying over Tripoli? Did we invade or occupy the country?

The west actively set about destabilising two governments in Libya and Egypt for their own ends and now they get all sanctimonious about Russia's actions.

You couldn't make it up.

 

[RaMDOM]

Heard on the news tonight that Putin stated two weeks ago that he would not annex Crimea, today he did.

Today he also stated that he has no interest in going into the Ukraine. I hope the fact that he stated it in an address to Russia and the World means that he means it this time.