Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

[The Running Man]

I'm curious, in what way do you think this crisis would be resolved? Break up Ukraine, give half of it to Russia and be done with it? Is that what you're saying?

When you have a minority who are actually regionally the majority and have completely different views?, language and aspirations what else can you do? Why shouldn't they have tje right to self determination.

 

[scorza]

Wait, you think the UN is some kind of super intelligence agency that supercedes everything else?

Where was the UN for iraq 2? What firm conclusions did they draw from the alleged use of chemicals in Syria? They aren't some uber unreproachable super intel force. And it was naive of the Huffington post to not question the report by linking back to the older stories it ran and asking questions and interrogating the UN findings instead of reporting it as defacto.

Did you quote the wrong post here? I didn't mention the UN in the post you quoted. In the post where I did mention the UN I even pointed out that it was an ineffective organisation. What are you blabbing on about?

The US and UK were wrong on Iraq 2, and were rightly censured by the UN for their actions, which is further evidence for my argument that the UN is independent and not victimising poor defenceless Russia.

Of course there are russians taking over Crimea. Its over 60% russian. As is donetsk at 50% same with other cities.

When do they get a free vote to determine their future if indeed the EU does want ukraine to join? What would it take?

...

what does this image show?

Answer the question properly, was it Russian troops who invaded Crimea?

A general election is planned in Ukraine for this month, ironically because of their actions the pro-Russians are jeapordising their right to self determination, but then we know that Putin isn't really interested in Human Rights is he?

 

[scorza]

And yet their actions or situations arising form their actions resulted in a coup that ousted the EU-neutral president and replaced him with a pro-EU one. Yeah sounds like they were just a bunch of random people rioting in a square, no organisation/backing at all.

If you look back at history there are many occasions where popular protests have forced a change of government. Will you accept it's just possible that the EUSA (or any other external force) wasn't behind them all? Wat Tyler's Peasant's Revolt of 1381 for example.

 

[The Running Man]

Did you quote the wrong post here? I didn't mention the UN in the post you quoted. In the post where I did mention the UN I even pointed out that it was an ineffective organisation. What are you blabbing on about?

The US and UK were wrong on Iraq 2, and were rightly censured by the UN for their actions, which is further evidence for my argument that the UN is independent and not victimising poor defenceless Russia.

Answer the question properly, was it Russian troops who invaded Crimea?

A general election is planned in Ukraine for this month, ironically because of their actions the pro-Russians are jeapordising their right to self determination, but then we know that Putin isn't really interested in Human Rights is he?

What am I babbling on about? Certainly not a pot calling the kettle black on human rights! Ever heard of Ed Snowden? I think he exposed a lack of rights, to privacy etc. The west I.e USA in particular has an awful track record on human rights. Ever heard of abu graihd or guantanamo bay?

Basically the UN have produced a report. In dependant reports conflict with the UN report, but you are suggesting we put the UN on a pedestal here and disregard other reports. I say it would be fool hardy ro do so.

yes there might be some russians in Crimea. I don't doubt this to be true. In fact there was already 20+ thousand already there in sevastopol.

Was there any uspmc in there too? Is blackwater in town or similar?

Look from a Russian perspective for a second. They have a naval base and a high percentage of Russian speakers to look after in Crimea. New radical group with neos involved ousts the elected leadership. They are fiercely pro eu and against Russia. What do you expect the russians to do? Abandon ship and let the new wholly illegitimate regime take over at sevastopol and get access to the Russian ships? Skuttle them amd surrender I mean seriously.

 

[leaskovski]

I'm curious, in what way do you think this crisis would be resolved? Break up Ukraine, give half of it to Russia and be done with it? Is that what you're saying?

No, but maybe the people of Ukraine should have a vote without thuggery from either side to allow the people decide what they want to do. Kind of like Scotland?

 

[Zethor]

When you have a minority who are actually regionally the majority and have completely different views?, language and aspirations what else can you do? Why shouldn't they have tje right to self determination.

The Russians aren't the majority in the East of Ukraine as they represent 20% to 40% of the population. In some cities they are slightly above 50%. Do you propose that certain cities join Russia? Or maybe split cities in two, Berlin style? What exactly do you propose? Use your head and spit it out.

No, but maybe the people of Ukraine should have a vote without thuggery from either side to allow the people decide what they want to do. Kind of like Scotland?

There are elections coming, they'll get a chance to vote. What does that have to do with the heavily armed men wearing body armour who occupied several police stations/city halls? Does that sound like a popular cry for self determination to you? Did you see any protesters in Kiev earlier this year armed to the teeth?

 

[scorza]

What am I babbling on about? Certainly not a pot calling the kettle black on human rights! Ever heard of Ed Snowden? I think he exposed a lack of rights, to privacy etc. The west I.e USA in particular has an awful track record on human rights. Ever heard of abu graihd or guantanamo bay?

Basically the UN have produced a report. In dependant reports conflict with the UN report, but you are suggesting we put the UN on a pedestal here and disregard other reports. I say it would be fool hardy ro do so.

What independent reports? I'm not putting the UN on a pedestal - I've even accused them of being completely ineffective. They are however independent of both the US and Russia.

yes there might be some russians in Crimea. I don't doubt this to be true. In fact there was already 20+ thousand already there in sevastopol.

Answer the question - did Russian troops invade Ukraine?

Was there any uspmc in there too? Is blackwater in town or similar?

Are you asking me or telling me? If you're asking me then no I don't think Blackwater were in town, I can't think of any reason why they would be and haven't seen any credible evidence to suggest their presence. If you're telling me then please provide some evidence.

Look from a Russian perspective for a second. They have a naval base and a high percentage of Russian speakers to look after in Crimea. New radical group with neos involved ousts the elected leadership. They are fiercely pro eu and against Russia. What do you expect the russians to do? Abandon ship and let the new wholly illegitimate regime take over at sevastopol and get access to the Russian ships? Skuttle them amd surrender I mean seriously.

What I expect the Russians to do is not invade other countries - is that really so hard? There was never any suggestion that previous agreements about Russian naval bases wouldn't be honoured.

 

[The Running Man]

The Russians aren't the majority in the East of Ukraine as they represent 20% to 40% of the population. In some cities they are slightly above 50%. Do you propose that certain cities join Russia? Or maybe split cities in two, Berlin style? What exactly do you propose? Use your head and spit it out.



There are elections coming, they'll get a chance to vote. What does that have to do with the heavily armed men wearing body armour who occupied several police stations/city halls? Does that sound like a popular cry for self determination to you? Did you see any protesters in Kiev earlier this year armed to the teeth?

True. But the east is quite pro russia and as you say some cities are 50% or more russian. So removing all other groups it's likely they have a majority.

They already voted once for the pro russian guy. How did that work out? Ah yes he was illegally overthrown. Sounds legit. What's the point in voting if the other half of the country will block you at every step? Doesn't seem overly democratic.

 

[The Running Man]

What independent reports? I'm not putting the UN on a pedestal - I've even accused them of being completely ineffective. They are however independent of both the US and Russia. 1

Answer the question - did Russian troops invade Ukraine? 2

Are you asking me or telling me? If you're asking me then no I don't think Blackwater were in town, I can't think of any reason why they would be and haven't seen any credible evidence to suggest their presence. If you're telling me then please provide some evidence. 3

What I expect the Russians to do is not invade other countries - is that really so hard? There was never any suggestion that previous agreements about Russian naval bases wouldn't be honoured 4.

1, who knows. Genuinely im not sure who is independent of what. Remember whilst the un is an organisation its an organisation of people with different thoughts, beliefs etc and are open to bias too.

2. No the Russian army did not invade ukraine. That's why we still have a country called ukraine. If we sent or supported protestors into hong kong would that be considered an invasion of China?

3. Im asking you. Did we invade ukraine politically?

4. To the russians a loyal and legally elected has just been ousted illegally from power. If the Argentinans invaded the Falklands what would we do?

 

[oulton]

I love the egg on scorza and zethors faces, keep it coming!

Go liberators of Russia!!!!

 

[scorza]

1, who knows. Genuinely im not sure who is independent of what. Remember whilst the un is an organisation its an organisation of people with different thoughts, beliefs etc and are open to bias too.

The idea being that by coming together and working with all the other different countries the overall output is independent from influence of one country. Of course it's not perfect, but it's the best we have. If you wait for something completely free from bias nothing would ever get done.

2. No the Russian army did not invade ukraine. That's why we still have a country called ukraine. If we sent or supported protestors into hong kong would that be considered an invasion of China?

I should have written Crimea rather than Ukraine, though technically most of the world still recognises Crimea as part of Ukraine rather than Russia so my question was correct. I can guess which way your mind sees it though so I'll rephrase the question:

Did Russian troops invade Crimea?

3. Im asking you. Did we invade ukraine politically?

What do you mean by that? How do you invade a country politically?

4. To the russians a loyal and legally elected has just been ousted illegally from power. If the Argentinans invaded the Falklands what would we do?

The Russians are wrong then, Yanukovych was impeached according to the Ukrainian constitution and is wanted for question over the murder of 121 Ukrainian citizens in Kiev. I don't see what the Argentina/Falklands situation has to do with any of this.

 

[The Running Man]

The idea being that by coming together and working with all the other different countries the overall output is independent from influence of one country. Of course it's not perfect, but it's the best we have. If you wait for something completely free from bias nothing would ever get done.

I should have written Crimea rather than Ukraine, though technically most of the world still recognises Crimea as part of Ukraine rather than Russia so my question was correct. I can guess which way your mind sees it though so I'll rephrase the question:

Did Russian troops invade Crimea?

What do you mean by that? How do you invade a country politically?

The Russians are wrong then, Yanukovych was impeached according to the Ukrainian constitution and is wanted for question over the murder of 121 Ukrainian citizens in Kiev. I don't see what the Argentina/Falklands situation has to do with any of this.

officially no the Russian army did not invade Crimea. Unofficially yes they probably did. Of course the question is motive and intent. Why did the russians move to protect the base and people?

You invade a country politically by telling the opposition how to do it, what benefits you will provide them with, how you will recognise them as a legitimate entity afterwards. Thus priming them to go.

Was the 'impeachment' legal? Apparently not. You should look into that yourself. But the process was not followed and they needed a vote of 337 for impeachment and they only got 328. So technically the impeachment failed. It says so clearly on the wiki page.

 

[Zethor]

True. But the east is quite pro russia and as you say some cities are 50% or more russian. So removing all other groups it's likely they have a majority.

Even in the East, the Russians make up for just 30% of the population - think about that for a second. I would guess there are some areas in England where Indians reached 20% or so. Would you support their right of self determination if they suddently decided they want to join India?
What does removing all other groups even mean?

The vote that resulted in a win for the former President has nothing to do with breaking up Ukraine , "self determination" or anything like that.

Those people have families, friends, they don't want Ukraine broken up in pieces, not even the Russians or we'd see them protesting in the hundreds of thousands, like they last winter.

What we're seeing is heavily armed men taking over police stations and city halls which is very similar to how things played out in Crimeea in the early stages. This isn't about self determination, values, or ethnicity. It's about Russia making yet another land grab.

 

[ubersonic]

If you look back at history there are many occasions where popular protests have forced a change of government. Will you accept it's just possible that the EUSA (or any other external force) wasn't behind them all? Wat Tyler's Peasant's Revolt of 1381 for example.

The difference is that it's not like the Ukraine was overwhelmingly against their president, the majority were but it wasn't exactly a landslide hence the amount of resentment against the new pro-EU government. And don't forget that the former government were part of the coup (illegally removing Ynkowhatever after he fled).

 

[scorza]

officially no the Russian army did not invade Crimea. Unofficially yes they probably did. Of course the question is motive and intent. Why did the russians move to protect the base and people?

Who decides what's official and unofficial? That is a good question though - why did the Russians protect the base and people from a non-existent threat? We can only speculate...

Having conceded that Russian troops probably did invade Crimea, who do you think is probably co-ordinating and facilitating the unrest in eastern Ukraine?

You invade a country politically by telling the opposition how to do it, what benefits you will provide them with, how you will recognise them as a legitimate entity afterwards. Thus priming them to go.

By "opposition" I assume you mean the Maidan protestors, is there any evidence that "we" were telling them what to do or that they'd be recognised as a legitimate entity afterwards? I accept the EU did dangle a carrot in front of Ukraine's nose by negotiating a trade agreement, however I'm not really sure that a trade agreement counts as "invading a country politically".

Was the 'impeachment' legal? Apparently not. You should look into that yourself. But the process was not followed and they needed a vote of 337 for impeachment and they only got 328. So technically the impeachment failed. It says so clearly on the wiki page.

I'm aware of this, I'm also aware that Ukrainian law in this area is horrendously complex so it's not as clear cut as you seek to make out. One thing's for sure - they couldn't very well sit back and allow a power vacuum at the top of Ukraine while this case went through the courts.

 

[The Running Man]

Even in the East, the Russians make up for just 30% of the population - think about that for a second. I would guess there are some areas in England where Indians reached 20% or so. Would you support their right of self determination if they suddently decided they want to join India?
What does removing all other groups even mean?

The vote that resulted in a win for the former President has nothing to do with breaking up Ukraine , "self determination" or anything like that.

Those people have families, friends, they don't want Ukraine broken up in pieces, not even the Russians or we'd see them protesting in the hundreds of thousands, like they last winter.

What we're seeing is heavily armed men taking over police stations and city halls which is very similar to how things played out in Crimeea in the early stages. This isn't about self determination, values, or ethnicity. It's about Russia making yet another land grab.

Crazy isn't it. Yet somehow the pro rus guy got 49% of the nation's vote. So even the non russians were supportive of his pro Russia stance right?

India unlikely, Pakistan? Yes. That's why we were so foolish to allow so many immigrants of one ethnicity into these areas. We are already preparing to roll out the shariah laws for them and serve halal food in our educational establishments. ...slippery slope?


Scorza. Come on man you were acting like this impeachment was all above board and legit. Even though you know it isn't. B+ for effort. F for presenting misinformation as a fact.

 

[leaskovski]

Did Russian troops invade Crimea?

Tough question! To most people yes, to Russia, probably no, as the Crimea government at the time asked for help from Russia, so technically, that isnt an invasion is it?

Or am I making that up? Im sure I read that the local Government in Crimea asked Russia to help protect it, hence Russian troops arrived?

 

[Zethor]

Crazy isn't it. Yet somehow the pro rus guy got 49% of the nation's vote. So even the non russians were supportive of his pro Russia stance right?

You do realise that European integration was among the campaign promises of the former president, don't you? Or that he declared, after Crimeea was annexed, that Ukraine should do anything in its power to get it back? Oh wait, you don't know these things because you don't know what you're talking about.

Yanukovych promised to stay friendly with Russia, not to break Ukraine up and hand in over of the Russians.

 

[Nutella33]

The difference is that it's not like the Ukraine was overwhelmingly against their president, the majority were but it wasn't exactly a landslide hence the amount of resentment against the new pro-EU government. And don't forget that the former government were part of the coup (illegally removing Ynkowhatever after he fled).

why would a revolt have to be based on a landslide? why do you think the pro russian resentment is not being organised just as you claim the pro european resentment was? The ukraine has revolted against the russians many times in the last century (you know...due to getting systematically starved etc) even when in a "minority".

If memory serves he was actually impeached and then he fled and then removed in absence. If he had stayed he would have been put on trail and imprisoned like the former governments leader was, instead he ran creating a power vacuum that had to be filled until elections. It was entirely his actions that created this situation. Now unless you want to argue he's acting under US/EU control its kind of hard to argue they've had a hand in it.


As an aside the maiden protesters occupied a square like the dozens of protests throughout recent modern history had hand made barricades, their own clothes and homemade weapons (cocktails etc)... the russian "protesters" have taken police buildings and airfields in 30 different locations on a porous border with russia....all have the same uniform without insignia (just like the russian troops that acted in crimea, shutting off ukrainian bases) and all magically have ak's and comms.
Whilst there are obviously some civilians supporting their actions, the ones actually taking and holding ground are acting decidedly like the military.

 

[The Running Man]

You do realise that European integration was among the campaign promises of the former president, don't you? Or that he declared, after Crimeea was annexed, that Ukraine should do anything in its power to get it back? Oh wait, you don't know these things because you don't know what you're talking about.

Yanukovych promised to stay friendly with Russia, not to break Ukraine up and hand in over of the Russians.

I think you underestimate how much support the 'pro russia' brigade have.