Firaxis discusses why Mantle is revolutionary for their work with Civilization: Beyond Earth

[Marine-RX179]

Likewise I don't understand all the negativity from (what seems to be) AMD users with regards to DirectX. All this talk of Microsoft holding things back for years, was there some law stopping anyone else making a better API until now?
If Microsoft were holding PC gaming back, who was doing a better job? Apple? Linux? Who are we comparing Microsoft to here?



I also wonder what attitudes would have been like if Mantle was an Nvidia API. Would AMD users be praising it so much or moaning about it being locked and nothing special?

The negativity toward the dx12 has NOTHING to do with being AMD user or Nvidia user, but because the M$ NEVER manged to deliver something well when create a single thing for multi-purpose. First we had XBoxLive/GFWL, then we had Windows 8, and soon we will have dx12 that's not solely focused is on performance for PC gaming, but a "one size fits all" solution for Xbone and Windows tablets, Qualcomm CPU...and oh...Windows PCs as well.

With M$ struggled to make dx11 efficient when it is just for PC alone, it doesn't exactly induce confidence with dx12 announced to be made to support so many different things. It would bring restrictions and limitation...which is something that some reviewers has critised on as well. It would somewhat end up being a Tug of War between Microsoft wanting the best performance for Xbone, Qualcoom wanting the best performance for their CPU, and AMD/Nvidia wanting the best performance for their GPUs.

If M$ was to made dx12 solely for PC, then I don't think there would be as much doubt and negativity.

 

[GoogalyMoogaly]

Comparing MS with MS in regards to gaming-pushing console gaming and what feels like 'forgetting' PC gamers, and will(hopefully they will) MS deliver?

When historically they promise PC gamers they are committed, and don't deliver -that's where my negativity ends, I want DX12 to deliver, I truly do, the same as I want SteamOS to deliver in the long run, to push MS forwards and not push PC gaming to the side, Mantle is fantastic, it's a different ballgame in output delivery, and I want that type of delivery in all my games, not some of them.



Ofc AMD users wouldn't be praising it if it was Nvidia, there's a stark difference to praising and saying it's ****/pointless though, that was a daft one, Nvidia have been using nvapi for years now, which has been giving a comparative boost and a better delivery in certain titles, AMD users haven't moaned about that to anywhere near the extent, the backlash from Nvidia users is part 'shoe on the other foot'-they can't use it-realise it sucks big time when a feature can't be accessed on their gpu's, and part payback for the negativity towards Nvidia's proprietary tech.

I'll also add that my only negativity towards PhysX is solely aimed at the lockout enforced(written in at the driver level) to block it rendering on Nvidia when AMD gpu is present-PhysX is a great feature imo, but performance/price ratio far outweighs the often hefty premium asked for comparative/slower performance.

Of course some of the reason there is less backlash with nvapi, PhysX, GameWorks, etc. is that there are 3 threads created for each game that uses it and then a couple of benchmark threads.

I just find it odd that Microsoft were the ones expected to create a new API. What was stopping ASUS creating a ROG api? MSI and Gigabyte also deal with cards from both vendors, but they haven't done anything either. Microsoft don't do hardware, why were they expected to make the next API to push things forward? Why are AMD being praised for doing Mantle now but not criticised for not doing it 15 years ago? Did customers matter to them then?

 

[Gloomy]

NVAPI is not like Mantle. NVAPI allows developers access to things like power saving features, GPU clocks, and stuff like that. AMD has libraries that do the same thing. It's for managing the hardware, not coding for it.

Mantle is more like CUDA, hardware specific API that beat other APIs to the punch. CUDA was released and functional before OpenCL (its competitor). Just like Mantle is out and functional before DX12 (its competitor).

CUDA is still better than OpenCL btw, just like Mantle will always be better than DX12. There's no beating having one entity plan and execute design decisions like that, Mantle will always be more flexible, more innovative, less buggy, just plain better, forever. The best you can hope for is that DX12 copies whatever new feature Mantle gets waay later-- and even that's not guaranteed (what if that new feature is exclusive to AMD hardware? DX12 will never get that feature).

 

[Marine-RX179]

I just find it odd that Microsoft were the ones expected to create a new API. What was stopping ASUS creating a ROG api? MSI and Gigabyte also deal with cards from both vendors, but they haven't done anything either. Microsoft don't do hardware, why were they expected to make the next API to push things forward? Why are AMD being praised for doing Mantle now but not criticised for not doing it 15 years ago? Did customers matter to them then?

Because directx is the only reason that M$ has to retain PC gamers. If anyone else made API but Microsoft, it will not be proprietary on Windows platform and would support other other OS as well, such as SteamOS for example...there would be then be no reason for gamers to stick with Windows. So as much as you might think M$ is doing this out of goodness of their heart, it is in fact for their own sake.

Gamers been crying out for a less bloated OS...a gamer edition Windows for years and keep it simple and more efficient, and what has M$ done? They made a 2 in 1 OS adding Metro and touchscreen and more things that gamers do not need! And now we have dx12 headed our way, a 3 (or more) in 1 API

 

[triss]

Because directx is the only reason that M$ has to retain PC gamers. If anyone else made API but Microsoft, it will not be proprietary on Windows platform and would support other other OS as well, such as SteamOS for example...there would be then be no reason for gamers to stick with Windows. So as much as you might think M$ is doing this out of goodness of their heart, it is in fact for their own sake.

Gamers been crying out for a less bloated OS...a gamer edition Windows for years and keep it simple and more efficient, and what has M$ done? They made a 2 in 1 OS adding Metro and touchscreen and more things that gamers do not need! And now we have dx12 headed our way, a 4 (or more) in 1 API

The problem is there isnt enough money in making a gaming version of windows or it would have been done, Gamers can cry out for wharever they like but since there not the only users of a O/S there Wants dont always come into the issue

 

[Marine-RX179]

The problem is there isnt enough money in making a gaming version of windows or it would have been done, Gamers can cry out for wharever they like but since there not the only users of a O/S there Wants dont always come into the issue

That's why lots of gamers are hoping SteamOS to work out and take off. M$ is simply trying to stall for time/persuade gamers with the announcement of dx12, hoping they will not divorce Windows and head down the chapel with SteamOS. Lucky for M$, SteamOS is still a little girl not yet old enough to walk down the aisle with gamers yet But give her a few years...who knows?

 

[triss]

Lots of gamers that are using SteamOs i can guarentee is less than gamers using windows,, and its exactly why windows is ahead.

Windows works fine for the average user just like DX has for years( I'm not saying DX is great or doesnt have issues) But for the majority of users and customers its fine
MS doesnt have to stall gamers when the ones you describe aren't there main customer base

 

[Martini1991]

I can't see any serious gamer using SteamOS for a long long long time.
Even if Mantle went Linux, you've still got the whole only AMD, but on a much lower audience, where AMD is known to be rather poor.

Mantle's never going to take off to the same heights as DirectX while it's GCN only, it's not even an option as to truly focus on because of the compatibility.

Mantle's always touted as "Quick and easy" to implement, but both implementations were late, and don't work for everyone on GCN, so it's not even a truly viable API for all GCN owners yet.

 

[Marine-RX179]

Lots of gamers that are using SteamOs i can guarentee is less than gamers using windows,, and its exactly why windows is ahead.

Windows works fine for the average user just like DX has for years( I'm not saying DX is great or doesnt have issues) But for the majority of users and customers its fine
MS doesnt have to stall gamers when the ones you describe aren't there main customer base

Did I say Windows is not ahead at this point? No. Also I was merely responding to GM's post regarding "why should M$ be the one be responsible for making the API but not anyone else take the responsibility for it?" My responses was "if anyone else made it, then the users wouldn't necessarily needed to be tied to Windows".

Regarding dx12, let's wait and see if it turns out to be an API primarily for PC with compatibility for Xbone and Microsoft Mobile platform, or is it going to be the other way round (similar to Windows 8)

Regardless of what you might think, I seriously think it's a bad idea on how M$'s planning on implementing dx12. I'm all for dx12, but I definitely don't think the direction they are headed with this is going to benefit PC gamers remotely as much as what it possibly can if done properly. Take GFWL for example...it became a laugh stock and spitting target for PC gamers, but initially it had HUGE potential to become something great, but it became epic fail when lumped together with XBoxLive. If M$ care about the PC community as much as they want to us to believe, then make dx12 focus on PC and PC alone. I don't know about you, but I don't give a crap about benefits that dx12 would bring to Xbone and Windows phones and tablets, cause I don't own or use them!

 

[PhysicsMan94]

Because all you ever complain about is Mantle and "Bad AMD" for doing it, if you actually made the same valid argument about CUDA or PhysX from time to time you might not look so bias.

You have completely missed the point of everything I've said in this thread, go back and read again - but properly this time.

<snip>

What do you think of that?

I think that's a bloody terrible idea, two separate APIs for AMD/Nvidia would just mean that games become heavily exclusive to each one - meaning that if someone wanted to play X game then they'd have to choose Y brand of GPU exclusively in order to get playable framerates (I'm sure you will try to bring up the GameWorks stuff here, but it's not the same at all - AMD users achieve perfectly fine fps on GW titles).

The system as it is now works well, in my opinion. Having Microsoft, Nvidia and AMD working together on a single API is good for the industry, this means you have the knowledge of both GPU architectures and the knowledge of the Windows Operating System itself going into DirectX - excluding Microsoft from the picture essentially removes this latter component. As I said, the current system works fine, it's just all parties (Microsoft, Nvidia, AMD) need to push on a bit and make sure DirectX is developed more often and paid attention to all the time - I believe that this will happen now that Microsoft have almost lost the console wars, they may instead opt to invest more time and money into PC gaming given that it's still worth more than the console market and they wouldn't want to lose that.

 

[Marine-RX179]

I believe that this will happen now that Microsoft have almost lost the console wars, they may instead opt to invest more time and money into PC gaming given that it's still worth more than the console market and they wouldn't want to lose that.

Actually no. M$ haven't admitted their lost on console war just yet. One of the biggest push behind dx12 is actually that M$ is hoping for Xbone that it would become a key element in helping them making a comeback and turn the tide of the console war. M$ will, and continue to be two-timing on the Xbox community and the PC community with the Xbox side remaining the favorite.

 

[Gregster]

As an avid Civ player, I can see a big benefit to those that don't have a powerful CPU in Civ 6 with Mantle. I am like Kaap and play huge maps and it can take a while before my turn whilst the moves for the other players are being done. This has always been the same and accepted but if that can be done quicker, then good result I say.

 

[triss]

Did I say Windows is not ahead at this point? No. Also I was merely responding to GM's post regarding "why should M$ be the one be responsible for making the API but not anyone else take the responsibility for it?" My responses was "if anyone else made it, then the users wouldn't necessarily needed to be tied to Windows".

Regarding dx12, let's wait and see if it turns out to be an API primarily for PC with compatibility for Xbone and Microsoft Mobile platform, or is it going to be the other way round (similar to Windows 8)

Regardless of what you might think, I seriously think it's a bad idea on how M$'s planning on implementing dx12. I'm all for dx12, but I definitely don't think the direction they are headed with this is going to benefit PC gamers remotely as much as what it possibly can if done properly. Take GFWL for example...it became a laugh stock and spitting target for PC gamers, but initially it had HUGE potential to become something great, but it became epic fail when lumped together with XBoxLive. If M$ care about the PC community as much as they want to us to believe, then make dx12 focus on PC and PC alone. I don't know about you, but I don't give a crap about benefits that dx12 would bring to Xbone and Windows phones and tablets, cause I don't own or use them!

the same argument could be used for XBONE users,, MS is required to make DX12 work on window it could have made it a XBONE only api .
Yes if u only make it for either pc, Xbone,windows phones then yes it would be less fat and more efficient.
But making three separate API's to do the same thing isnt cost effective
So you get a generic thing much like windows which suits the consumer base.
If you want a full gaming O/s and API and were prepared to fund it fully it i'm sure a Dev would make it But the Market isn't there and thats why we dont have it already.

 

[humbug]

You have completely missed the point of everything I've said in this thread, go back and read again - but properly this time.




I think that's a bloody terrible idea, two separate APIs for AMD/Nvidia would just mean that games become heavily exclusive to each one - meaning that if someone wanted to play X game then they'd have to choose Y brand of GPU exclusively in order to get playable framerates (I'm sure you will try to bring up the GameWorks stuff here, but it's not the same at all - AMD users achieve perfectly fine fps on GW titles).

The system as it is now works well, in my opinion. Having Microsoft, Nvidia and AMD working together on a single API is good for the industry, this means you have the knowledge of both GPU architectures and the knowledge of the Windows Operating System itself going into DirectX - excluding Microsoft from the picture essentially removes this latter component. As I said, the current system works fine, it's just all parties (Microsoft, Nvidia, AMD) need to push on a bit and make sure DirectX is developed more often and paid attention to all the time - I believe that this will happen now that Microsoft have almost lost the console wars, they may instead opt to invest more time and money into PC gaming given that it's still worth more than the console market and they wouldn't want to lose that.

There you go, defending and everything that they do, even when its Nvidia locking out game developers from optimising on anything but Nvidia GPU's, its inexcusable.

You need a 290 to keep up with a GTX 770 in at least one GW Title, so if your a mid level card owner normally perfectly good for 1080P; its no longer enough, you have to spend a lot more than what you do with Nvidia to get reasonable performance.

But thats all good, it helps Nvidia justify their higher prices, lets make all games Game Works.

You use ridiculous arguments to fault find with what AMD do in giving Game developers what they have been asking for for years, something that has pushed the industry forward where MS have been trying to hold it back and then use more ridiculous arguments to defend Nvidia when they also use tactics to make them selves look better by locking developers out of the ability to optimise for Nvidia's rivals, IE doing the same thing that Microsoft do.

Your quite blatantly bias.

And get this, a lot of Game Developers don't like Nvidia any more than the do Microsoft for the same reasons, they deserve each-other.

 

[PhysicsMan94]

Okay, humbug, it's clear this debate is going nowhere and will continue to go nowhere. I'll put an end to it here.

 

[Marine-RX179]

the same argument could be used for XBONE users,, MS is required to make DX12 work on window it could have made it a XBONE only api .
Yes if u only make it for either pc, Xbone,windows phones then yes it would be less fat and more efficient.
But making three separate API's to do the same thing isnt cost effective.

No offense, but have you read back on what you are saying? You are in a way trying to defend M$ and to support and justify their strategy in shifting focus further and further away from PC platform, because it might costing them more money to put more effort on focusing on PC platform?

Microsoft think there's a market and money to be made on the mobile platform? Great, make it separate projects and make investment separately. With the way dx12 is going supporting multiple things at the same time, it difficult not to doubt that history could well be repeating itself with attention that M$ would place toward the PC gaming side ending up being like how GFWL was...a tiny corner sub-section of XBoxLive that barely anyone notice it is there, unless actually trying to look for it.

 

[Steampunk]

The system as it is now works well, in my opinion. Having Microsoft, Nvidia and AMD working together on a single API is good for the industry, this means you have the knowledge of both GPU architectures and the knowledge of the Windows Operating System itself going into DirectX - excluding Microsoft from the picture essentially removes this latter component. As I said, the current system works fine, it's just all parties (Microsoft, Nvidia, AMD) need to push on a bit and make sure DirectX is developed more often and paid attention to all the time - I believe that this will happen now that Microsoft have almost lost the console wars, they may instead opt to invest more time and money into PC gaming given that it's still worth more than the console market and they wouldn't want to lose that.

How well does it work when four years ago, AMD and Nvidia wanted to work on next-generation APIs, developers were asking for all these low-level improvements, and MS could stall the whole industry because they wanted to keep their consoles ahead?

MS did the same thing with Internet Explorer when they got away with bundling it exclusively with Windows, and had high market share. MS just stagnated the web to keep control of it. Then they were forced to include other web browsers, they lost market share and had to innovate. They had to be forced, they didn't advance when they didn't have to, and they've done the same with DirectX.

 

[triss]

No offense, but have you read back on what you are saying? You are in a way trying to defend M$ and to support and justify their strategy in shifting focus further and further away from PC platform, because it might costing them more money?

Microsoft think there's a market and money to be made on the mobile platform? Great, make it separate projects and make investment separately. With the way dx12 is going supporting multiple things at the same time, it difficult not to doubt that history could well be repeating itself with attention that M$ would place toward the PC gaming side ending up being like how GFWL was...a tiny corner sub-section of XBoxLive that barely anyone notice it is there, unless actually trying to look for it.

What i'm simply saying is You want a trimmed out fast version of a o/s and api right??
Who is going to fund it?
Gamers wont, there simply isnt enough of those willing to spend what it costs which is why windows and DX is still the biggest gaming platform in the PC
Would i like it to be far better if DX was faster slimer and windows had less bloat ? yes
Do i blame them for making a profit and achieving what there Shareholders want? nope thats what successful business do.
Should they make stuff they lose loads of money on ? no otherwise eventually they wont exist and then u have...

What MS currently does is make stuff they can sell to a wide base and make money .
Widen the net of a product and for a Modest increase in RnD you gain more profit .What business doesnt do this?

And why cant they move away from just a pc base?
What they do/dont do is once again upto them not what i or you would like them to do

 

[PhysicsMan94]

Do i blame them for making a profit and achieving what there Shareholders want? nope thats what successful business do.
Should they make stuff they lose loads of money on ? no otherwise eventually they wont exist and then u have...

What MS currently does is make stuff they can sell to a wide base and make money .
Widen the net of a product and for a Modest increase in RnD you gain more profit .What business doesnt do this?

Apparently it's different with Microsoft though, seems like everyone and their mother's love to jump on the hate-train against them - despite not realising exactly how much they have done for the entire technology industry over, well, their entire lifetime as a company.

 

[ubersonic]

You have completely missed the point of everything I've said in this thread, go back and read again - but properly this time.

It's not that he is missing what your saying, it's that he is reading your posts, quoting them in his replies, but somehow seeing something completely different and replying to that lol.