Does this seem reasonable? Employer query

OpenToSuggestions · 21 May 2014 at 23:50

Caged said:
The key point is flexible. Any reasonable person would interpret that as turds hitting the fan means you might have to stay late and then you come in later the next day. It doesn't mean work extra hours because they are too tight to recruit more people.

They don't do flexible working hours.

If you stay late, you do so at your own expense.

Caged · 21 May 2014 at 23:50

Well then they are in no position to ask their staff to be flexible.

estebanrey · 21 May 2014 at 23:52

Caged said:
The key point is flexible. Any reasonable person would interpret that as turds hitting the fan means you might have to stay late and then you come in later the next day or leave early on Friday or whatever. It doesn't mean work extra hours because they are too tight to recruit more people.

I was going to post words to the same effect. 'Being flexible' doesn't mean "you have to work any hours we request with no notice". If that's what they mean they should express it explicitly. Otherwise, as Caged said, it just means you have semi-flexi-time.

Nick1881 · 21 May 2014 at 23:54

OpenToSuggestions said:
The contact is worded to the effect of:
Hours are XYZ, however flexibility is required to meet the needs of the role.

Doesn't mean you don't get paid for it. Flexibility should work both ways. You need to man up.

estebanrey · 21 May 2014 at 23:55

Caged said:
Well then they are in no position to ask their staff to be flexible.

Unless they are a company who specialises in supplying contortionists to entertainment events.

Chandler_90 · 21 May 2014 at 23:58

Every hour you WORK you should get PAID.

Perhaps a meeting with your manager is in order?

Do they work extra for nothing?

TommyV · 22 May 2014 at 00:01

Will a quiet word with the boss in a passive manner mentioning your unpaid hours and how much it'll mean to you to be able to attend not work?

I know it seems obvious, but a lot of people here are very quick to get high and mighty with putting your foot down, which may well have a detrimental affect on your reputation within your team/to your boss, it isn't always the best approach long term

OpenToSuggestions · 22 May 2014 at 00:03

Chandler_90 said:
Every hour you WORK you should get PAID.

Perhaps a meeting with your manager is in order?

Do they work extra for nothing?

25% are seen as lazy as they do not work extra.
40% do a little extra
30% work longer hours all the time
5% have no life and live there.

A meeting would not do much. "Nobody else has time off either". "Everyone else does extra too".
I am hard enough skinned to do my work and leave.
I do have OCD problems and have attended an anxiety course, which he knows about. However I now have no personal feeling in my work - I get hacked off about it, but I am not angry.

The only way to get time back is for a sicky (I am not like that!), but as nobody else ever has one it puts you in the highest percentage for sick days, which would worry me come chopping time.

EDIT: I have adjusted the percentages. Caged did not have a typing error!

Stuff · 22 May 2014 at 00:04

Seems like your business is being very unreasonable, but I'm all too familiar with it. I work loads of extra hours, but every once in a while, will take a day back for all the extra hours.

Caged · 22 May 2014 at 00:05

OK, but those 50% that are seen as lazy still get paid. Seems like they're winning in this scenario.

It sounds like a terrible place to work so why exactly are you doing the extra hours? It doesn't sound like the place you get promoted at into a position that doesn't suck a bag of wangs.

The problem is that you've sort of dug yourself into a hole by just working for free for so long, so changing it might be difficult. Have you worked out your hourly rate?

OpenToSuggestions · 22 May 2014 at 00:09

Caged said:
OK, but those 50% that are seen as lazy still get paid. Seems like they're winning in this scenario.

It sounds like a terrible place to work so why exactly are you doing the extra hours? It doesn't sound like the place you get promoted at into a position that doesn't suck a bag of wangs.

The problem is that you've sort of dug yourself into a hole by just working for free for so long, so changing it might be difficult. Have you worked out your hourly rate?

I did lots extra whilst on the probation period.
Now I tend to show up 5-10 mins early and leave 10-40 minutes late.
I have worked out my hourly rate before, but I have overheard before that salaried staff are expected to do what is needed to satisfy the role needs.

beh · 22 May 2014 at 00:17

OpenToSuggestions said:
I have been told I am not allowed to attend unless I make the time up, which itself is an OK comment and is in line with company policy.

However yesterday I had to do a job which involved me working for 15 hours, which is 6 hours for free.

If you regularly work more than your contracted hours then surely you'll inevitably make the time up without actually doing any more hours than you already do?

estebanrey · 22 May 2014 at 00:17

Chandler_90 said:
Every hour you WORK you should get PAID.

There is a slight problem with that though, when your work requires set shifts.

I work with three supervisors who should all be on the 'Shift' setting in our HR management PC application. I, being a Techie Support for them, am on an 'Admin' setting.

That means I get paid for the hours I work, whenever I do my hours. The 'Shift' one however pays you nothing for hours worked before your set shift, then gives TOIL hours for every minute worked over it. One of the supervisors keeps setting himself (we all have admin access to the HR app) to Admin, so he'll turn up at 5:30am (shift supposed to start at 6) then leave half an hour before his shift is supposed to end.

Unfortunately our boss is more interested in making friends, telling jokes and looking for another job to do anything about it. This means there are periods where there are no operational supervisors there (as their shifts are designed to coincide) and I have to take up the slack (annoying given I don't receive a 'management' pay grade like they do.

His argument is that he is doing his hours but the other two supervisors rightly get annoyed by this.

OpenToSuggestions · 22 May 2014 at 00:17

beh said:
If you regularly work more than your contracted hours then surely you'll inevitably make the time up without actually doing any more hours than you already do?

Yes, but we have been told that it must be made up by a certain date as too many people want to attend and work needs to be done.

Flubble · 22 May 2014 at 00:17

Nobody should ever work for free, the whole point of you going to work is to get paid to buy food and that roof over your head. If my boss told us that we must work extra unpaid hours then he would have a mutiny on his hands.

Chandler_90 · 22 May 2014 at 00:18

Perhaps on occasions you could have therapy to go to?
It might be worth a shot.. and if they try to play any card ask them if they will pay for the missed session.. which they won't..

Caged · 22 May 2014 at 00:19

I've seen contracts that list the duties as "anything else related to the role" or words to that effect, but normally they are pretty clear about what the working hours are, that's the point of a contract. There's always been an understanding that staff can be flexible so if someone needs to stay late one evening then they can, but it's always been a two-way street.

If the work can't be done without half the team giving an hour extra each day then you are under-resourced, over-utilised, badly managed, or a combination of all of those.

Yeah sure 10 minutes here and there is pretty standard, but there is no way I would be doing a 15 hour day without taking one off in lieu.

OpenToSuggestions · 22 May 2014 at 00:21

Caged said:
giving an hour extra each day then you are under-resourced, over-utilised, badly managed, or a combination of all of those.

Yeah sure 10 minutes here and there is pretty standard, but there is no way I would be doing a 15 hour day without taking one off in lieu.

It is a combination of the above.
I take a proactive approach but at the minute am frequently in a bad mood due to being **** on multiple times per day.

Chandler_90 · 22 May 2014 at 00:21

estebanrey said:
There is a slight problem with that though, when your work requires set shifts.

I work with three supervisors who should all be on the 'Shift' setting in our HR management PC application. I, being a Techie Support for them, am on an 'Admin' setting.

That means I get paid for the hours I work, whenever I do my hours. The 'Shift' one however pays you nothing for hours worked before your set shift, then gives TOIL hours for every minute worked over it. One of the supervisors keeps setting himself (we all have admin access to the HR app) to Admin, so he'll turn up at 5:30am (shift supposed to start at 6) then leave half an hour before his shift is supposed to end.

Unfortunately our boss is more interested in making friends, telling jokes and looking for another job to do anything about it. This means there are periods where there are no operational supervisors there (as their shifts are designed to coincide) and I have to take up the slack (annoying given I don't receive a 'management' pay grade like they do.

His argument is that he is doing his hours but the other two supervisors rightly get annoyed by this.

This clearly shouldn't be happening either!

Caged · 22 May 2014 at 00:22

OpenToSuggestions said:
Yes, but we have been told that it must be made up by a certain date as too many people want to attend and work needs to be done.

You'll make two hours up by Wednesday of a normal week anyway.

If they mean make it up on top of the extra you already do then just ignore them. They don't sound competent enough to actually follow through on any threats.

Working in such a crap environment must be doing terrible things to your mental health as well. If I were in your position I'd be arriving on time, leaving on time, and using my newly discovered free time to find another job.