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Why 'Watch Dogs' Is Bad News For AMD Users -- And Potentially The Entire PC Gaming Ecosystem

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AlamoX said:
no that wouldn't be the same, because the game is with or without mantle is coded for open directx, so enabling mantle or disabling it is irrelevant to nvidia users, because they have the same directx game in the end.
gameworks is different it runs 1 version of the game and AMD card have to run that, with all the ******** code that comes with it, and on top of that, AMD cannot change the code to optimize it for their cards, and they dont even have access to the code to point at the probleme, this is fundamentaly different if you dont see it then you have a probleme my friend.
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Gerard said:
I'm starting to wonder why people are having issues grasping the problem and constantly bringing up mantle like mantle is somehow affecting NVidia performance. :confused:
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Because it looks bad, it is bad and thankfully its not very wide spread. Watchdogs is a big game though, it's a big title for Nvidia and GameWorks so it's reared it's head again. It won't be the last we hear of this. Thankfully a lot of respected game devs have criticised GameWorks so i don't think hope it won't become a regular feature of pc gaming. However some will always accept the money thrown at them via Nvidia, and no doubt the money AMD throw at developers. The problem is when AMD do that, Mantle support or not it has no negative effect on Nvidia DX performance or driver optimization at all.
 
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Gerard said:
I'm starting to wonder why people are having issues grasping the problem and constantly bringing up mantle like mantle is somehow affecting NVidia performance. :confused:
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Because some can not understand any other distinction other than there is a performance difference and any difference in technique leading to it is irrelevant, fair or not.
 
So many tin foil hats being worn here but when someone says it runs like dog poo on nVidia cards, they completely ignore it because they want to see a problem where there isn't one.

Runs like poo on AMD? - Check
Runs like poo on nVidia? - check

nVidia purposefully crippling it on AMD? lol
 
_Alatar_ said:
humbug old drivers for both AMD and Nvidia.

Should use 337.88 and 14.6 for watch dogs, otherwise the tests wont be representative as both driver sets offered quite big changes for WD.
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Look about right to me, for 337.88 anyhow.

4770K @ 4.7ghz
8GB DDR3 2400C10
Single GTX780 @ 954/1500 (no boost, base stock clocks)
1920x1080
Ultra preset with temporal SMAA (retail version!!)

Frames, Time (ms), Min, Max, Avg
5465, 94515, 30, 85, 57.822
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Frametimes.jpg


I also recorded each frame and VRAM usage, vram peaked at 3080MB and is probably to blame for things like this happening in the frame rates and the massive frame latencies seen above.

53
35
43
56
72
83
84
83
84
56
48
54
54
55
57
57
57
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Drop offs of over 20 FPS, makes the game quite unplayable despite the apparent higher averages.
 
pgi947 said:
Look about right to me, for 337.88 anyhow.

4770K @ 4.7ghz
8GB DDR3 2400C10
Single GTX780 @ 954/1500 (no boost, base stock clocks)
1920x1080
Ultra preset with temporal SMAA (retail version!!)



Frametimes.jpg


I also recorded each frame and VRAM usage, vram peaked at 3080MB and is probably to blame for things like this happening in the frame rates and the massive frame latencies seen above.



Drop offs of over 20 FPS, makes the game quite unplayable despite the apparent higher averages.
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^ :eek:

Well regardless of the GameWorks debate, its safe to say Ubisoft have made a right hash of it no matter your gpu preference.

Does this remind anyone of that other GameWorks title that was a mess, COD Ghosts?
 
Gregster said:
So many tin foil hats being worn here but when someone says it runs like dog poo on nVidia cards, they completely ignore it because they want to see a problem where there isn't one.

Runs like poo on AMD? - Check
Runs like poo on nVidia? - check

nVidia purposefully crippling it on AMD? lol
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dont be short sighted greg, come back in few months see how things evolve with watch dogs, or gameworks games overall optimisation overtime, they might not do it right away because it's too obvious, and it's already making a lot of noise, they might not do it on watch dogs, but they will use it when they need to, the point is gameworks is unfair for Intel/AMD users for a valid reason.
 
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LtMatt said:
^ :eek:

Well regardless of the GameWorks debate, its safe to say Ubisoft have made a right hash of it no matter your gpu preference.

Does this remind anyone of that other GameWorks title that was a mess, COD Ghosts?
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Yep, which is why no one should really worry about one card out performing another, the game runs like crud on the highest end hardware regardless of vendor. Lazy backwards development we've come to expect from ubisoft

Never bothered with Ghosts, pre-ordered it, pre-loaded the entire 52GB game, went to launch it on release and it told me to re-download the whole 52GB, haven't looked at it since :p

The theme is strong with Ubi though. Recent history:

Far Cry 3: Heavily promoted, finally the return of the FC series. Multi card remains broken for 10 months after launch, ubi blame AMD/NV who both collectively blame ubisoft and highlight the same issue.

Assasins Creed Black Flag: Runs like poo on release, multi card broken again for both sides. Releases physx patch a few weeks after launch, fundamentally breaks the game when enabled - never fixed.

Watch Dogs....well, see the above.
 
Baboonanza said:
If that's true then NVIDIA are spending dev time not just on making the libraries but also in making them deliberately difficult to optimise for without the source.
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This is one of the reasons I find it dubious, because although we think of Nvidia as an evil slobbering monolithic beast (which is a bit ironic as they are smaller than AMD) in reality they are a regular company with shareholders and somebody would have to explain to them that instead of making their product better they are trying to damage the competition. Which although a normal business practice, at this level of extreme we're talking (and I hate to use a WW2 analogy) a level of mismanagement here on the scale of diverting supplies away from critical war efforts in order to maximise your Jew burning efforts.

It's just not something that makes sense, why put so much effort into hurting AMD when you could make your own mantle instead or something, that would serve the purpose much better.


humbug said:
charts
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Ok, I can't see anything wrong here, that all looks normal, what am I missing? (I'm not trying to be silly, I really don't see it).


Orangey said:
I wish we could just skip forward to the future where an enterprising hacker will inevitably have proven Nvidia is sabotaging. The company's history is littered with examples like this.
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As is AMD's, they just get less stick because they are the current underdog. Back when Nvidia were the plucky upstart sticking it to 3DFX/ATi everybody loved them.
 
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pgi947 said:
Yep, which is why no one should really worry about one card out performing another, the game runs like crud on the highest end hardware regardless of vendor. Lazy backwards development we've come to expect from ubisoft

Never bothered with Ghosts, pre-ordered it, pre-loaded the entire 52GB game, went to launch it on release and it told me to re-download the whole 52GB, haven't looked at it since :p

The theme is strong with Ubi though. Recent history:

Far Cry 3: Heavily promoted, finally the return of the FC series. Multi card remains broken for 10 months after launch, ubi blame AMD/NV who both collectively blame ubisoft and highlight the same issue.

Assasins Creed Black Flag: Runs like poo on release, multi card broken again for both sides. Releases physx patch a few weeks after launch, fundamentally breaks the game when enabled - never fixed.

Watch Dogs....well, see the above.
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Agreed.
 
Gerard said:
I'm starting to wonder why people are having issues grasping the problem and constantly bringing up mantle like mantle is somehow affecting NVidia performance. :confused:
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Look at it this way, if the stuff about gameworks deliberately gimping AMD is true, then it means devs close to Nvidia are being coerced into using something that gives better performance on one vendor's hardware than other hardware.

Likewise the ones being coerced into using Mantle are using something that gives better performance on one vendors hardware, of course people maintain that Nvidia users can still use normal DX and get lower performance, but then AMD users can also use play a Gameworks title with alleged reduced performance.

The approaches are vastly different but the results are the same, in both cases a manufacturer has found a way to hurt the others performance, if AMD really wanted Mantle to be good for the industry and not for themselves they would have made it universal not the second coming of Glide.

NB: in case it isn't coming over properly I am against both, they are both bad for the industry and the consumer.
 
AlamoX said:
dont be short sighted greg, come back in few months see how things evolve with watch dogs, or gameworks games overall optimisation overtime, they might not do it right away because it's too obvious, and it's already making a lot of noise, they might not do it on watch dogs, but they will use it when they need to, the point is gameworks is unfair for Intel/AMD users for a valid reason.
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Short sighted? If you look at previous GameWorks games like Batman AO and AC4, it runs perfectly well on AMD as well as nVidia and in fact, it took a 780Ti at 1400Mhz to beat a 290X at 1250Mhz (or something like that) in our bench thread for Batman AO.

Broken for nVidia, broken for AMD.... Not sure where nVidia have purposefully crippled it on AMD and even the guy who worked on WatchDogs called BS to those statements.
 
ubersonic said:
Look at it this way, if the stuff about gameworks deliberately gimping AMD is true, then it means devs close to Nvidia are being coerced into using something that gives better performance on one vendor's hardware than other hardware.

Likewise the ones being coerced into using Mantle are using something that gives better performance on one vendors hardware, of course people maintain that Nvidia users can still use normal DX and get lower performance, but then AMD users can also use play a Gameworks title with alleged reduced performance.

The approaches are vastly different but the results are the same, in both cases a manufacturer has found a way to hurt the others performance, if AMD really wanted Mantle to be good for the industry and not for themselves they would have made it universal not the second coming of Glide.

NB: in case it isn't coming over properly I am against both, they are both bad for the industry and the consumer.
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I would have no problem with GameWorks if it didn't negatively effect AMD performance. Just like Mantle has no negative effect on Nvidia performance.
 
ubersonic said:
The approaches are vastly different but the results are the same, in both cases a manufacturer has found a way to hurt the others performance, if AMD really wanted Mantle to be good for the industry and not for themselves they would have made it universal not the second coming of Glide.

NB: in case it isn't coming over properly I am against both, they are both bad for the industry and the consumer.
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Sorry but that definition is plain wrong, Mantle does not hurt NVs performance in any way, NVs performance in DX11 is going to be what its going to be regardless if Mantle is an option for AMD users or not.

When Mantle was available In BF4 did NV performance in DX11 drop at the same time.
 
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