Upcoming games to support DirectX

[shankly1985]

You won't need to mate, the high end Nvidia cards are still ahead in DX VS Mantle, and next year DX12 will be here anyway.

Mantle just seems to bring the high end AMD cards up to par with the more expensive Nvidia cards running DX in the couple of games it supports so far. Which is great for AMD, and for the consumer to save a bit of money buying a lesser card for BF4 etc, but if you're already on a high end Nvidia card makes no difference tbh.

I suppose it good too have options, if AMD do ever make Mantle open. By then DX12 will likely be here so prob won't ever use it anyway

Mantle was great for crossfire it has to be said, smooth as butter in BF4, much better than AMD crossfire running in Direct X.

You sure about that? Last time I seen the single GPU benchmarks where nvidia beat mantle was running crazy amount overclocking.
How does stock for stock benchmark perform mantle vs directx?

 

[shankly1985]

For example
780
http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showpost.php?p=25924043&postcount=384

290
http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showpost.php?p=26041107&postcount=630

If you think every single gamer is going to be running crazy water Cooling setups and overclocking you can think again.
Most don't, so for them mantle still offers better performance.

 

[LtMatt]

You won't need to mate, the high end Nvidia cards are still ahead in DX VS Mantle, and next year DX12 will be here anyway.

Mantle just seems to bring the high end AMD cards up to par with the more expensive Nvidia cards running DX in the couple of games it supports so far. Which is great for AMD, and for the consumer to save a bit of money buying a lesser card for BF4 etc, but if you're already on a high end Nvidia card makes no difference tbh.

I suppose it good too have options, if AMD do ever make Mantle open. By then DX12 will likely be here so prob won't ever use it anyway

Mantle was great for crossfire it has to be said, smooth as butter in BF4, much better than AMD crossfire running in Direct X.

Broom have a read of some testing that has been done recently using Nvidia's own FCAT tool. I think you'll find it very enlightening and it would indicate that large parts of what you say here is incorrect.

Not only are AMD faster and smoother under Mantle in BF4, they're also ahead under DX11 too and by a reasonable distance in fps average and frame variance/consistency. It goes against everything you just said pretty much.

Spoiler

It's really very noticeable to most people, but a lot of people are in denial because real world testing and results often show things that are inconvenient to their prejudices.

I can give you some examples here using Nvidia's own FCAT tool which measures frame latency, variance as well as things like dropped frames. We will compare AMD's Mantle vs Nvidia's DX11 implementation in Battlefield 4. Battlefield 4 is a good title as it has been out for ages and is well optimised for both sides and it saw a nice gain from the Nvidia wonder drivers.

AMD/Nvidia DX11

Variance and spikes will represent itself as hitching or stutters during gameplay. It's very easy to see and feel these while playing because typically the game is smooth for the most part.

Looking at the above chat we can see that AMD is offering a smoother experience at 1440P under DX11. Much less fewer spikes and hitching and a tight consistency of frame times. If we look at the frame variance in MS, Nvidia are offering 7+ in variance whilst the AMD solution offers 3+. Nvidia are offering more than double the variance in their frame times using DX11, ouch! Single cards are offering 1 for the 290X and just over 1 for the 780TI. Both very good for single cards, no issue here.

Lets have a look at Mantle.

The Mantle line is completely flat. There is not one single spike, not one instance of variance, microstutter, hitching, nothing, perfection. Surely it can't be better than single card, can it? Lets look at the variance chart in MS. Again the crossfire setup on DX11 offers a ball hair over 3MS variance. Mantle however offers 0.5MS of variance! That is lower than a single card can manage under DX.

That is why the majority of us rant and rave about Mantle. It's head and shoulders (woo shampoo pun) above anything else out there.

Remember, this is using Nvidia's own tool which they created to highlight the problems AMD used to face with frame pacing, variance and dropped frames.

Using newer drivers.

NVIDIA: 337.91 (GTX Titan Z)
NVIDIA: 337.88 (GTX 780 Ti)

Variance in MS of 15MS for the TitanZ compared to 0.5MS for Mantle crossfire. (granted there are not 4K Mantle results, so it's not a perfectly fair comparison)

I won't mention the 780TI Variance.

Their 1440P results are better though, but still slightly behind AMD's DX11 and miles off what Mantle offers.

Mantle offering big gains of up to 28% faster on Plants Vs Zombies over AMD/Nvidia DX11 performance at 4K.

Spoiler

Source
http://gamegpu.ru/action-/-fps-/-tps/plants-vs-zombies-garden-warfare-test-gpu.html

Performance updates coming for Mantle In Plants Vs Zombies. Being 28% faster than AMD/Nvidia DX11 performance is not enough.

https://twitter.com/JA_Wiebe/status/486951316149657600

 

[LambChop]

All Mantle is, is a sneaky way of optimizing games for AMD's benefit. AMD know Nvidia will never adopt it, Nvidia wouldn't want to, so AMD buy up enough developers to use it to incorporate it into games to give them an advantage then AMD turns round and says 'Everyone can use it' while knowing fine well Nvidia wouldn't touch it with a bargepole.

Then you have AMD and its users claiming Gameworks is threatening games, while conveniently 'forgetting' it's AMD officially optimizing games themselves. It's something that is genius from a bit of a dumb company, that's what surprises me most.

 

[Boomstick777]

You sure about that? Last time I seen the single GPU benchmarks where nvidia beat mantle was running crazy amount overclocking.
How does stock for stock benchmark perform mantle vs directx?

Yeah look before all you guys choose me as someone to debate with..

I am not a Mantle hater, I think what AMD have done with Mantle is great, gave Microsoft a kick up the butt to push out Direct X12, and Nvidia to optimize drivers even more to squeeze more performance from Nvidia cards.

I am also a realist, from what I have seen Nvidia's new drivers on par with or pull ahead of AMD cards running mantle. This isn't fanboism I run AMD and Nvidia, switch all the time. I just call a spade a spade you know.

Mantle is excellent for those running lesser hardware i.e weaker CPU with stronger GPU combo. However imho if you're running a high end i7 CPU + (Which most serious PC gamers do) Plus a high end Nvidia card, you don't need Mantle as much as the lower end guys. Especially with these new drivers on the Nvidia side giving extra performance.

So yeah I think Mantle is great, and Direct X12 will be as well, as great it may be to run games with weaker CPU plus higher end GPU combo, it's not something I ever see myself doing, as I always buy decent CPU's anyway.

With regard to the Nvidia driver VS Mantle question,

Tom's did good summary.

All in all this is one of the most impressive driver releases we've seen in a long time. Nvidia's point to all this is to show that you don't need a new API and developer support in order to be able to get performance gains, but that time well spent optimizing drivers can make a big difference too. That said, competition from AMD's Mantle API likely pushed Nvidia to develop these optimizations. In the end, it's the gamers who win.

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/nvidia-geforce-337.50-driver-benchmarks,26473.html

 

[shankly1985]

All Mantle is, is a sneaky way of optimizing games for AMD's benefit. AMD know Nvidia will never adopt it, Nvidia wouldn't want to, so AMD buy up enough developers to use it to incorporate it into games to give them an advantage then AMD turns round and says 'Everyone can use it' while knowing fine well Nvidia wouldn't touch it with a bargepole.

Then you have AMD and its users claiming Gameworks is threatening games, while conveniently 'forgetting' it's AMD officially optimizing games themselves. It's something that is genius from a bit of a dumb company, that's what surprises me most.

You have any proof to backup that amd pay devs to use Mantle?
From what I understand, the reason for Mantle is devs was asking for it and can freely use it. They just need to enter the Beta program.
Once Mantle is released to public end this year I believe anyone can use it.

 

[LambChop]

You have any proof to backup that amd pay devs to use Mantle?
From what I understand, the reason for Mantle is devs was asking for it and can freely use it. They just need to enter the Beta program.
Once Mantle is released to public end this year I believe anyone can use it.

While here in the real world, you don't have to be a genius to work that one out. It take a very long time to get games out the door, you think they want to mess around with 2 API's and waste more time for nothing ? There will be a little incentive there somewhere, I think we both know it.

 

[Boomstick777]

All Mantle is, is a sneaky way of optimizing games for AMD's benefit. AMD know Nvidia will never adopt it, Nvidia wouldn't want to, so AMD buy up enough developers to use it to incorporate it into games to give them an advantage then AMD turns round and says 'Everyone can use it' while knowing fine well Nvidia wouldn't touch it with a bargepole.

Then you have AMD and its users claiming Gameworks is threatening games, while conveniently 'forgetting' it's AMD officially optimizing games themselves. It's something that is genius from a bit of a dumb company, that's what surprises me most.

Oh it totally is, AMD own's words were they want to be in control of their future. Well Nvidia have been doing that for sometime, sponsoring developers, adding exclusive features for Nvidia cards. What's good for one has to be good for the other, AMD do it and think they are somehow holy and righteous and Nvidia are evil. It's all weird PR bullcrap from both sides. I just want the best hardware there is. Save me all the PR nonsense, whoever has the best will get my money. I must admit I admire Intel for never getting involved in media squabbles like this. The strong silent approach is much more honorable in business.

I think the great Kevin Costner once said,

"If you build it, they will come"



Well that applys to GPU's as well Less PR crap trying to fluff out in-between hardware launches and more actual hardware plz !!!

 

[humbug]

Yeah look before all you guys choose me as someone to debate with..

I am not a Mantle hater, I think what AMD have done with Mantle is great, gave Microsoft a kick up the butt to push out Direct X12, and Nvidia to optimize drivers even more to squeeze more performance from Nvidia cards.

I am also a realist, from what I have seen Nvidia's new drivers on par with or pull ahead of AMD cards running mantle. This isn't fanboism I run AMD and Nvidia, switch all the time. I just call a spade a spade you know.

Mantle is excellent for those running lesser hardware i.e weaker CPU with stronger GPU combo. However imho if you're running a high end i7 CPU + (Which most serious PC gamers do) Plus a high end Nvidia card, you don't need Mantle as much as the lower end guys. Especially with these new drivers on the Nvidia side giving extra performance.

So yeah I think Mantle is great, and Direct X12 will be as well, as great it may be to run games with weaker CPU plus higher end GPU combo, it's not something I ever see myself doing, as I always buy decent CPU's anyway.

With regard to the Nvidia driver VS Mantle question,

Tom's did good summary.



http://www.tomshardware.com/news/nvidia-geforce-337.50-driver-benchmarks,26473.html

Nvidia are still a very very long way behind Mantle in their DX Drivers, they are even behind AMD's DX drivers in BF4. AMD can optimise DX just as much as Nvidia can and still have mantle to utterly destroy both.

The only way Nvidia can catch up to Mantle is if they develop their own low level API, i doubt they are going to bother now, they will pin thier hopes on DX12 as that will by here be the time they get their own low level API up and running.

 

[LtMatt]

Yeah look before all you guys choose me as someone to debate with..

I am not a Mantle hater, I think what AMD have done with Mantle is great, gave Microsoft a kick up the butt to push out Direct X12, and Nvidia to optimize drivers even more to squeeze more performance from Nvidia cards.

I am also a realist, from what I have seen Nvidia's new drivers on par with or pull ahead of AMD cards running mantle. This isn't fanboism I run AMD and Nvidia, switch all the time. I just call a spade a spade you know.

Mantle is excellent for those running lesser hardware i.e weaker CPU with stronger GPU combo. However imho if you're running a high end i7 CPU + (Which most serious PC gamers do) Plus a high end Nvidia card, you don't need Mantle as much as the lower end guys. Especially with these new drivers on the Nvidia side giving extra performance.

So yeah I think Mantle is great, and Direct X12 will be as well, as great it may be to run games with weaker CPU plus higher end GPU combo, it's not something I ever see myself doing, as I always buy decent CPU's anyway.

With regard to the Nvidia driver VS Mantle question,

Tom's did good summary.



http://www.tomshardware.com/news/nvidia-geforce-337.50-driver-benchmarks,26473.html

Read my spoiler above. Educate yourself using independent testing done by pcper using FCAT on the latest drivers for both sides rather than putting too much weight behind a PR slide. Or you can just pretend i didn't post it and stick to your prejudices.

 

[shankly1985]

While here in the real world, you don't have to be a genius to work that one out. It take a very long time to get games out the door, you think they want to mess around with 2 API's and waste more time for nothing ? There will be a little incentive there somewhere, I think we both know it.

With no proof then i'll stay with what I believe.

 

[Boomstick777]

Read my spoiler above. Educate yourself using independent testing done by pcper using FCAT on the latest drivers for both sides rather than putting too much weight behind a PR slide. Or you can just pretend i didn't post it and stick to your prejudices.

Prejudice? Did you even read my post... Oh LtMatt always wanna be starting something...

 

[LtMatt]

You won't need to mate, the high end Nvidia cards are still ahead in DX VS Mantle, and next year DX12 will be here anyway.

Prejudice? Did you even read my post... Oh LtMatt always wanna be starting something...

Not really, just pointing out that what you said is incorrect and backed that up using independent testing done by pcper using Nvidia's own FCAT tool. Can't get fairer than that, right?

 

[LambChop]

With no proof then i'll stay with what I believe.

Do you have proof they are not ?

 

[humbug]

To say Nvidia are ahead of Mantle with their DX drivers is pretty laughable, TBH, Boom.

AMD are 100% + ahead of their own DX Drivers with Mantle, including BF4 where their DX drivers are better than Nvidia's.

 

[LambChop]

Not really, just pointing out that what you said is incorrect and backed that up using independent testing done by pcper using Nvidia's own FCAT tool. Can't get fairer than that, right?

Who was it that interviewed Huddy ?

 

[Gerard]

Who was it that interviewed Huddy ?

A few different places actually, pc per and maximum pc I think the other one was that had him on a webcast.

 

[LambChop]

A few different places actually, pc per and maximum pc I think the other one was that had him on a webcast.

Ok, I'll just give you a little clue, he was sitting in PCPer's offices.

 

[LtMatt]

Who was it that interviewed Huddy ?

A few different places actually, pc per and maximum pc I think the other one was that had him on a webcast.

Yes it was pcper and maximumpc who both did video/podcast interviews. He also had several interviews with Tech Radar. Those are all i know of, but there may have been more.

LambChop if you're trying to say pcper results can't be trusted because they interviewed Huddy remember that pcper was one of the first sites (not the first) to highlight AMD's frame variance problems thanks to using FCAT which was supplied by Nvidia.

 

[LambChop]

Yes it was pcper and maximumpc who both did video/podcast interviews. He also had several interviews with Tech Radar. Those are all i know of, but there may have been more.

LambChop if you're trying to say pcper results can't be trusted because they interviewed Huddy remember that pcper was one of the first sites (not the first) to highlight AMD's frame variance problems thanks to using FCAT which was supplied by Nvidia.

He was sitting in PCPer's offices getting interviewed, not long after... PCPer managed to get hold of NVidia's FCAT tool.

I find that very convenient.