Do you believe in evolution ?

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I don't believe in evolution, I don't need to because its an observable fact. This does not mean that you can necessarily see it with your own eyes over the course of one human lifetime.

We accept many things that we can not see with the human eye, radiation, electricity, magnetism (we can see the effects these have on items but not the forces/ particles themselves)

Evolution is simply the fact that we can observe that there is a process by which different kinds of living organism have developed from earlier forms during the history of the earth

Re the micro v macro evolution non debate, what would you call the cumulative effect of lots of 'micro' evolution???

I accept the theory of evolution by natural selection (along with pretty much all scientist) as the explanation for the observation that living organisms have and do evolve (witness the evolution of Nylon eating bacteria within the life time of a lot of people on earth as one amongst many examples). Why do I accept this? Because it offers a reliable, repeatable mechanism for explaining the diversity of life observed. (note to people that have not yet cottoned on it does not seek to explain the existence of life ...ie the start that's abiogenesis)

Do I believe that therefore 'believing 'in evolution necessary excludes the possibility of a god? Well no not in a mostly deist sense of god. But if your religious belief is based on a book (or collection of books) that suggests that the earth was made by God 6,000 years ago in six days then I suggest that it does go quite some way to undermining that belief.

Although I may prefer to deal with 'moderate' religious people on a day to day basis as they may be a little easier to deal with I have to admit that I find them intellectually questionable. Either your religion is right or not. If not why is your god is true them why is he so useless and or capricious that he cannot accurately convey a set of rules for simple humans to follow?? I only judge a religion based on its religious texts as written. Why? because otherwise you are dealing with people who take there religion ala carte and I have to ask by what authority they feel that they can pick and choose which bits of there religious books they believe in. By the standards of the instructions laid down in the Abrahamic religious books I have read I feel confident have I have met a grand total of zero Christians (take no care for the morrow, hate your father and your mother, turn the other cheek etc).

Sure I have met a lot of people who claim to be Christians (and Muslims and Jews etc)

Finally no one does anything 'in the name of atheism'. Why? because atheism has no beliefs or dogma. Atheism is simply the rejection of a claim 'that god(s) do exist'. It does not in the strictest sense say that god does not exist it is simply the position that there is insufficient evidence to say that a god(s) do exist.

People however do 'do things in the name of religion' because sometimes religious texts do give specific moral instructions leading adherents to be able to claim scriptural authority (you shall not permit a witch to live, kill people who collect wood on the Sabbath, you shall not allow two men to lie together, etc etc)

You can be an atheist and be a fascist, a communist and pacifist, a sociopath, a person that believes in crystal healing, a homeopath and any number of many other things.

Stalin etc may have persecuted religious people and religions and declared their states to be 'atheist' states but they did this as they realised that religion was a competitor/ enemy to the states they were trying to set up/ maintain.

Personally I am a secular atheist that believes that there should be no compulsion either for or against religion. However that does not mean that I believe that intelligent design/ creationism should be taught in science lessons because it is not science based!
 
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Well we really don't know that they are or aren't do we. Absolutely no way. But the point is, and stands irrespective, a significant number of one side castigates the other for doing so but then refuses to acknowledge that themselves. You can turn around to these people and ask well how do you know the universe exists - where is your proof - and time and time again we get duh of course it does stupid. Now that is a pretty hefty assumption (but one I personally do think we should make). This goes further than us just assuming there are natural causes to events and that evidence can be used to determine those causes. You first have to dig into philosophy to find a few answers or rather justifications for your assumptions to have that foundation you then lay the science upon. That the universe exists, to me, is a massive assumption almost boarding on the infinite so to then assume one exists and has a creator is also so equally out of my ability to comprehend that I can determine between either and it comes down to my personal choice - my belief that a god most likely does not exist but a belief I can not prove or care to prove.

edit: we seem to be collecting angels in these threads ...

Castigates the other for assumptions such as "everything must have a designer/creator". I've never heard of anyone, and I can't believe that anyone would, disagree that some form of a universe or existence exists, that time passes, etc.
 
Really? No dogma. And atheists believe there to be no god. They can't prove it can they.

Please read my post you cannot prove a god(s) don't exist you can however say that the evidence provided is not sufficient to make the claim proven. There is an infinite number of things that you cannot prove don't exist.

Again atheisms is a response to a dogma 'that a god(s) do exist'

All atheists do not believe there is no gods, some may say they believe this but in the strictest sense it is a rejection of the claim not an assertion that there is no god(s).

Personally I believe (but cannot prove) that there is no god, Why? because postulating a god does not explain anything at all.

Ie why is there live, who made the universe, why is there anything at all?

Well god did it!!!!

er... where did god come from then??

you don't solve a mystery by in inventing another (unexplained) mystery im afraid.

And anyone who wants to try an claim that their god is universal/ uncaused creator/ infinite/ had always been..... is just dodging the infinite regress they have not the slightest idea of how to deal with
 
Stalin etc may have persecuted religious people and religions and declared their states to be 'atheist' states but they did this as they realised that religion was a competitor/ enemy to the states they were trying to set up/ maintain.

It can be seen a number of ways.

Some would say that Stalin killing to create an atheist state is killing in the name of atheism, some would say he only did it because it only generated unneeded social caste and atheism is more equal, so he killed in the name of socialism. Some would say he just killed in the name of power and greed, as they were a threat to his autocracy.
 
Please read my post

I did it seems to me you have a particular type of atheist in mind almost the perfect definition of one. In that case I agree with you however I will throw that back at you with the fundamental definition of say for example a Christian which then removes the rather large net you cast in that post. You can't have it both ways.
 
It can be seen a number of ways.

Some would say that Stalin killing to create an atheist state is killing in the name of atheism, some would say he only did it because it only generated unneeded social caste and atheism is more equal, so he killed in the name of socialism. Some would say he just killed in the name of power and greed, as they were a threat to his autocracy.

The problem is in the actual brand of socialism...Marxist-Leninism is underpinned by a fundamental requirement of Atheism. This means that actions done in the name of that ideology are, by definition, also done in the name of Atheism.

Stalin killed for a whole range of reasons, one of which was the perpetration of Atheism, another was the creation of a Communist State and another was to cement his position and remove threats to his authority. All are true.
 
But that is down to how one determines the definition of fact. Both sides use different interpretations to mean different things and wonder why the other side won't agree with them.
 
What fact! Quote and link?

It all stinks and we dont know end of discussion. ;)

The fact of evolution. As for links, this would be a good place to start.

Pro-tip: don't say "end of discussion" after saying something daft. We do know, and it's all testable and provable. End of discussion.
 
I did it seems to me you have a particular type of atheist in mind almost the perfect definition of one. In that case I agree with you however I will throw that back at you with the fundamental definition of say for example a Christian which then removes the rather large net you cast in that post. You can't have it both ways.

It always makes me laugh when someone who claims to be religious talks about 'fundamentalist' believers in a negative tone.

Ultimately a 'fundamentalist' is (or at least should be) someone who actually takes their religious texts a face value. I don't really understand people who claim to be religious but then go on to say that they don't believe in certain parts of their religious texts (claiming they were 'of the time' or are a metaphor of some other nonsense explanation).

If your book says you shall not allow a witch to live then that means at least two thing

1) that witches are real

2) that you should not allow one to live and are therefore commanded to kill them when you find them.

People that claim to have a more 'developed understanding'/ more nuanced belief etc are just picking and choosing which bits they like 'having it both ways' as you say

The Abrahamic books are rammed full of immoral, nasty and downright bizarre stories and statements.

These are either

A) man made

B) The ill translated will of a capricious, whimsical god who despite being the author of creation and life cant quite manage to give his chosen creation (man) a set of clear and unambiguous rules to live life by that are not based in a particular time and culture

C) The true will an historical recording of a god.

If you believe that C) is the right answer then I am glad to have no part worshiping you god. If B) is right then your god has a lot to answer for and is in my opinion evil at least by omission

I say again if you are not a fundamental Christian (i.e. one who actually believes his bible) on what authority do you decide which bits are literal and which are not other that you own internal feelings or the prevailing social/ cultural consensus on what is acceptable and what is not.

If you cannot answer this in what sense can you actually claim to be a Christian

Atheism is a position which requires very little to sustain. You simply need to not accept the claim that a god(s) exist, as no sufficient evidence has been provided. It could be a dogmatic position in some but is not necessarily one as you are potentially open to new evidence (of a god(s) 'faith' is not evidenced based and so is not going to be easily challenged by new evidence.

You can see this with evolution (to get back on thread topic). The Christian churches used to believe and preach that the stories in genesis were the literal truth explaining the start of the world and the explanation for the existence and diversity of life (inc humans).

Successive human advancements from (not a full list) geology, radiology, biology, astronomy and many other fields of study have shown that you cannot literally take these stories to be true. We did not come from Adam and Eve, there was no great flood or ark, the Jews did not leave Egypt and wander about the Sinai and the earth and all live was not created 6,000 years or so ago in six days.

Someone truly susceptible to evidence should therefore be able to work out that this being the case then they really should start to question whether the rest of the book (collection of books) should be viewed to have any truth either, especially when it appears to be making unsupported claims.

But because we are not a fully rational species, because we fear death, because we are communal animals that seek human companionship and camaraderie such as provided by most religions and because of the social pressures influence of the long established churches many seek to ignore the evidence saying perhaps well it ok the Catholic Church NOW accepts evolution!!!! Well how magnanimous of them remind me did they apologise for torturing people in the past for saying the world was round! Bow convenient that god allows the leaders of some religions to have 'revelations' allowing then to change their doctrines so they are not too out of step with current law, social norms or scientific understanding.

You know a sceptic might say they were making it up as they go along and that there was no god divinely directing in the background otherwise!
 
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It always makes me laugh when someone who claims to be religious talks about 'fundamentalist' believers in a negative tone.

Wow that's a really long post. I only read the first line though as you got two things wrong a) I have never claimed to be religious b) I never used the word fundamentalist or even raised that at all.

Wasted a bit of time there then didn't you ...
 
I don't know about you, but if someone believes in the bible, I'd rather they cherry-picked the nice bits than take the whole thing to heart. Just so long as they realise they're cherry-picking.
 
I've never heard of anyone, and I can't believe that anyone would, disagree that some form of a universe or existence exists, that time passes, etc.

Neither I have I outside of a mental health institution. It still is an assumption though that we can't prove.

Are you are now arguing that because everyone doesn't dispute something then it must be true?
 
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