Woman beheaded in London

Xordium said:
Nice to see no-one responded to my last post about the DSM. Kind of expected that. ;)
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The Diagnostic Statistical Manual (DSM) is not used within British psychiatry for the classification of mental illness.

We use the ICD10. There's much common ground between the two but also many differences.
 
mattyg said:
How would people describe you.

We have an uncle who is a paranoid schizophrenic, But he is also obnoxious and rude.
We don't know how much of that is his illness and how much of it is him just being an ass because he's been kind of treated like a child.

The family have let so much slide because "He's ill its not his fault" When chances are thats made things worse.
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Living with schizophrenia is not easy. It takes a lot of empathy and understanding from your friends and family. Fortunately I have both. I don't know how people would describe me. You'd need to ask them.
 
mike gunnz said:
The Diagnostic Statistical Manual (DSM) is not used within British psychiatry for the classification of mental illness.

We use the ICD10. There's much common ground between the two but also many differences.
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It is actually. More importantly though the ICD-10 was derived from the DSM-IV-TR and the ICD-11 will be derived from the DCM-V. Psychopathy as a diagnosis is also not in the ICD-10 which goes back to my point back in Post 185. One group of people are talking about psychopathic personalities another groups about a layman's terminology of psychopath.
 
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Xordium said:
It is actually. More importantly though the ICD-10 was derived from the DSM-IV-TR and the ICD-11 will be derived from the DCM-V. Psychopathy as a diagnosis is also not in the ICD-10 which goes back to my point back in Post 185.
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That's because psychopathy is never given as a diagnosis. Certainly not in the UK. Its not a mental disorder. I do like the nuances in your post 185 and I get your point but your conclusions are still inaccurate.
 
mike gunnz said:
That's because psychopathy is never given as a diagnosis.
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Which was my point ... in post 185.

I never said it was a diagnosis - I was questioning the knowledge of the posters who were treating as it were. I was then respectfully point out that several posters are once again arguing with each other with two completely different viewpoints both of which had merit but not actually in contravention of each other.

That was highlighted in post 197.

Edit: can you clarify please what conclusion is wrong. You didn't actually specify what component was wrong or why it was wrong. I can hardly address that if you aren't specific can I. In fairness, the only conclusion I can see that I did draw was that some posters didn't seem to know what I was on about and that I think is self-evident.
 
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I don't agree with your assertion that the DSM is used within British psychiatry. I work with psychiatrists none of whom use it.

Were it to be used at a tribunal a solicitor would have a field day.
 
mike gunnz said:
I don't agree with your assertion that the DSM is used within British psychiatry. I work with psychiatrists none of whom use it.

Were it to be used at a tribunal a solicitor would have a field day.
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So none of the psychiatrists you work with use it therefore it isn't used at all in Britain. May want to check the logic on that one. The DSM is used in Psychiatry my wife uses it who strangely works in Psychiatry - in fact we have a copy in the office here sitting across the room from me.

You are correct most British psychiatrist tend to use the ICD however not all in all cases. The reason I said specifically the DSM was because V has something very relevant to the debate that was ensuing around post 185. I would have thought that people who profess such knowledge would have been aware of that in relation to the subject at hand. I could have equally have said ICD-10 and the point would have stood that there is no-one getting a diagnosis of "Psychopath" however I was more interested whether people were aware of the connotation related to the DCM-V and its imminent influence, on what they were talking about, towards ICD-11.

Hope that clarifies it for you.

Edit: Note here on http://www.patient.co.uk/doctor/Antisocial-Personality-Disorder.htm - that the start is as follows:

"Antisocial personality disorder is one of nine personality disorders defined in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of the American Psychiatric Association, 4th Edition (DSM-IV). For more information, see separate article Personality Disorders and Psychopathy."

To say it is not used is wrong on the very subject at hand around the time of that post. www.patient.co.uk refers to the DSM not the ICD.

Let's go to the NICE site next here we have:

Under current diagnostic systems, antisocial personality disorder is not formally diagnosed before the age of 18 but the features of the disorder can manifest earlier as conduct disorder. People with conduct disorder typically show antisocial, aggressive or defiant behaviour, which is persistent and repetitive, including aggression to people or animals, destruction of property, deceitfulness, theft and serious rule-breaking. A history of conduct disorder before the age of 15 is a requirement for a diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, fourth edition (DSM-IV).

Found at: http://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg77/chapter/introduction

So we have the guidance for professionals and for patients for this country directly reference the DSM not the ICD. I hope this again clarifies things for you and apologies for the edits. :p
 
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Well no, I was clear that in my experience the DSM is not used within UK psychiatry and im pretty certain that were it to be used in evidence it would be trashed. I have never seen it quoted in a psychiatric report or heard it quoted at Tribunal. I also have access to a copy of the DSM although it's not mine. I'm not a psychiatrist, I'm a mental health social worker and currently training as an AMHP so due process is something I'm interested in although I don't claim to be an expert. Yet.

Im sure the DSM is referred to in practice but its certainly not referred to in law which is where and probably only where it really counts when it comes to deciding matters as to someone's diagnosis and often by extension their liberty.

I do agree that the ICD is a derivative of the DSM but that's not to say they are the same thing.

We may well be arguing at cross purposes which I believe was part of your original point.
 
Xordium said:
So none of the psychiatrists you work with use it therefore it isn't used at all in Britain. May want to check the logic on that one. The DSM is used in Psychiatry my wife uses it who strangely works in Psychiatry - in fact we have a copy in the office here sitting across the room from me.

You are correct most British psychiatrist tend to use the ICD however not all in all cases. The reason I said specifically the DSM was because V has something very relevant to the debate that was ensuing around post 185. I would have thought that people who profess such knowledge would have been aware of that in relation to the subject at hand. I could have equally have said ICD-10 and the point would have stood that there is no-one getting a diagnosis of "Psychopath" however I was more interested whether people were aware of the connotation related to the DCM-V and its imminent influence, on what they were talking about, towards ICD-11.

Hope that clarifies it for you.

Edit: Note here on http://www.patient.co.uk/doctor/Antisocial-Personality-Disorder.htm - that the start is as follows:

"Antisocial personality disorder is one of nine personality disorders defined in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of the American Psychiatric Association, 4th Edition (DSM-IV). For more information, see separate article Personality Disorders and Psychopathy."

To say it is not used is wrong on the very subject at hand around the time of that post. www.patient.co.uk refers to the DSM not the ICD.

Let's go to the NICE site next here we have:

Under current diagnostic systems, antisocial personality disorder is not formally diagnosed before the age of 18 but the features of the disorder can manifest earlier as conduct disorder. People with conduct disorder typically show antisocial, aggressive or defiant behaviour, which is persistent and repetitive, including aggression to people or animals, destruction of property, deceitfulness, theft and serious rule-breaking. A history of conduct disorder before the age of 15 is a requirement for a diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, fourth edition (DSM-IV).

Found at: http://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg77/chapter/introduction

So we have the guidance for professionals and for patients for this country directly reference the DSM not the ICD. I hope this again clarifies things for you and apologies for the edits. :p
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My wifes trust (forensic) use both.
 
mike gunnz said:
We may well be arguing at cross purposes which I believe was part of your original point.
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Maybe so because you are shifting your position now from 'It is not used' to now saying 'In my experience it is not used' + 'Im sure the DSM is referred to in practice but its certainly not referred to in law' and the appeal to authority from 'I work with psychiatrists' to ' I'm not a psychiatrist, I'm a mental health social worker and currently training as an AMHP so due process is something I'm interested in although I don't claim to be an expert. Yet.'

Which would be fair enough but it wouldn't actually invalidate what I said. And like I said further augments that when one is challenging someone's assertion then they need to be quite specific in what they are challenging and how they are challenging it.
 
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