Anyone Employing?

D.P. said:
Lets just hope your friend doesn't have the same attitude problem as you do then.

Having a degree is the most common and normal way of landing employment. At the moment that is the highest qualification that your friend has, and is far more valuable than most certificates, especially those that haven't been awarded yet!


Secondly, you say your friend doesn't knwo what area of IT to work in because he doesn't about the IT industry since he hasn't worked in it. He needs to be very sure he is not jumping from the frying pan into the fire with such a blind move. sounds like he needs to do much more research on what the different fields involve and what is required to land a job there.
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I don't think you understand how badly he needs to get out of retail. At worst, it's a fire into another fire with the prospects to then get out of the fire and on with his life. Right now, there is nothing else. At all. You need to understand, anything else is better.

Nothing to do with my attitude. I just don't want to discuss it and I've explained why. This forum is very good for putting people down, but when it comes to helping to lift people up, it often turns a blind eye. I'm tired of reading the same old posters patting themselves on the back at the expense of others who fell below par.

He knows his problems and his failings. What I am trying to do here is see if there are any doors which can be opened with all things considered. Going over his past mistakes is absolutely pointless. He wants to change and grow, not be told "oh well, you should have gone to a better university. Sucks to be you," which is by-and-large all this forum seems to do when it comes to these topics. It's taking the focus away from what is really needed.

Attitude? Well, it's not hard to see why. I'm tired of the elitism. You drown in it on here, it's disgusting.

I welcome your help, I really do. But not the snobbery. That can get left outside. If you can discuss options without pointing out the obvious "should have got a 2.1" nonsense, then I'm all ears. Otherwise it's the same old degrading soundbite and I have no time for it.

Further education isn't an option, because as a retail manager and supporting a family... he cannot afford to do it. He's doing the A+ because that seemed like the sensible thing to do. His options are very limited and he is very aware of that. The whole point of this thread is to try and help my friend catch a much needed break. It is killing me to see how unhappy at work he is.
 
There is also self study then... (Coursera, MIT open courseware etc... local library) that is free (aside from time which may be limited)... The retail sector is huge I'm really not seeing why he can't try moving within it at least short term. If he wants to increase his chances then he ought to offer something a bit more than being a nice guy who would like a break - that might be sufficient but he'd be quite reliant on luck.

Maybe look at the London university international program... minimal fees as it is basically self study with some exams.
 
Nix said:
I don't think you understand how badly he needs to get out of retail. At worst, it's a fire into another fire with the prospects to then get out of the fire and on with his life. Right now, there is nothing else. At all. You need to understand, anything else is better.

Nothing to do with my attitude. I just don't want to discuss it and I've explained why. This forum is very good for putting people down, but when it comes to helping to lift people up, it often turns a blind eye. I'm tired of reading the same old posters patting themselves on the back at the expense of others who fell below par.

He knows his problems and his failings. What I am trying to do here is see if there are any doors which can be opened with all things considered. Going over his past mistakes is absolutely pointless. He wants to change and grow, not be told "oh well, you should have gone to a better university. Sucks to be you," which is by-and-large all this forum seems to do when it comes to these topics. It's taking the focus away from what is really needed.

Attitude? Well, it's not hard to see why. I'm tired of the elitism. You drown in it on here, it's disgusting.

I welcome your help, I really do. But not the snobbery. That can get left outside. If you can discuss options without pointing out the obvious "should have got a 2.1" nonsense, then I'm all ears. Otherwise it's the same old degrading soundbite and I have no time for it.

Further education isn't an option, because as a retail manager and supporting a family... he cannot afford to do it. He's doing the A+ because that seemed like the sensible thing to do. His options are very limited and he is very aware of that. The whole point of this thread is to try and help my friend catch a much needed break. It is killing me to see how unhappy at work he is.
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He needs to do 2 things.

  • Decide what he wants to do in "IT" - as others have already said, it's a huge field, and what may be relevant XP/qualifications for one facet will be utterly pointless for another (there's no point doing a CCNA if he wants to be a C# developer for example).
  • Commit to what he wants to do, and start getting some certification.

I think one of the key questions he needs to ask himself is "why" he wants to get into "IT" - particularly if he's not even sure what he wants to do.

This probably sounds harsh, but many people seem to want to get into "IT" because they see it as an easy route to big money. Unfortunately it's not, unless you are VERY good, or VERY lucky (or usually a combination of the 2). For every consultant on a 6 figure salary, there's 100 1st line people resetting passwords on less than £20k.

Fair enough if he is genuinely interested in it, but that passion will have to come across to potential employers, and indecision and hesitancy to invest any time/money into self-improvement isn't going to show that.
 
No, it's not harsh Haggisman, it's helpful. Thank you.

He seemed pretty eager about Networking. He told me he was planning on doing the A+ and then the Network+, but obviously he's still desperate to get out of retail and into IT now. If 1st line is all there is at this juncture, I'm sure he'd take that and then focus on moving into a speciality.

I'm sure programming is out of the question for example, as he's got zero experience with it. As we stand, he's basically a computer enthusiast. Like any one on these boards, except he didn't go down that road educationally or with his first career-steps.

He's not after big money, although that would be nice. He wants a job he feels is worthwhile and has genuine prospects, rather than the glass-ceiling cesspit of retail.
 
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So, I really don't want to recommend this route... but your friend can try and get in touch with a company called FDM (or any similar company)

They offer a way into IT for some people who might not otherwise have an obvious route into IT, although this comes with some significant drawbacks and I don't recommend it without lots of thought.

FDM is an IT consultancy with the following model (unless they changed it recently):
< Assuming that take your friend >
  • They require an unpaid period where you're bound with them whilst they look for a placement for you, during which, you're expected to turn up at one of their offices (at your expense) and learn some skills (they make some learning material and taught classroom sessions available)
  • They require a two year commitment (+ unpaid period) up front, with a punitive cost to break the commitment
  • They pay you a flat salary and try and hire you out to the highest paying client, so their profit comes from the difference (if you end up at something like an investment bank, the difference can be large). What you get out of it is the experience of working at somewhere with some reputation.

Working with them can be quite soul-destroying, but if you get lucky and land a placement with a large firm, it can pay off, but it's very much an if. I personally wouldn't recommend it, but I post only to make you aware of the option.
 
Retail is grim. Not the worst field out there, but I certainly empathise with wanting out.

Nix said:
I'm sure programming is out of the question for example, as he's got zero experience with it.
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That ^ roughly covers my idea. Programming is entertaining (it's basically a computer game) and reasonably well paid. Everyone starts out with zero experience in it too. It might be worth putting down the networking book and taking the first steps down the road of software development.

It wouldn't be an instant move - realistically he'd have to spend a year or so hacking around some open source project to show he's competent - but he's not going to find a job he likes right now if he doesn't have any experience or qualifications.

re: elitist - worthless degree + irrelevant experience isn't an easy sell however down to earth the interviewer might be. Degree is unsolvable at this point, so it'll have to be experience. Or more retail. Sorry :(

FDM sounds like an interesting business model. Might actually be an option here.
 
I think you might be taking some of the posts the wrong way Nix. It's not snobbery, it's just that based on the fact your friend has zero IT qualifications, a graduate role is is best option. Unfortunately, most graduate positions require a 2:1 degree (which University usually matters little). Therefore, I recommend he looks for graduate jobs that take a 2:2 while also completing those exams.

Think about it this way, am employer wants to see that you can pass those exams. If they don't have a training scheme in place then they'll only know that if you have the qualification. He needs to focus. If this is something he wants to do he should research the different IT areas (rather than just saying "can I have any job in IT other than 1st line please?" or "you tell me what you can do for me") and then focus on the exams. By completing the exams off his own back it gives the employers a lot of confidence in his ability and determination.

It's a difficult market. Jobs won't come to him and they definitely won't take "well, I'll do the exams if you give me the job". It's not snobbery.

By the way, if he wants to go into IT and has sales experience via his retail manager role (accounts management, sales, etc), has he thought of going into IT sales? The pay is low to start but there are a lot of IT companies in the South East who are looking for good sales people. Pay rapidly increases with sales bonuses. My gf works in this area and knows a lot about her area of IT (Cisco - data centre networking and the likes). They paid for her to do the exams and zero starting knowledge was required. He already has the sales skills. The teams are great and the vendors treat high performing teams with holidays and the likes to keep morale high.
 
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drakioned said:
So, I really don't want to recommend this route... but your friend can try and get in touch with a company called FDM (or any similar company)

They offer a way into IT for some people who might not otherwise have an obvious route into IT, although this comes with some significant drawbacks and I don't recommend it without lots of thought.

FDM is an IT consultancy with the following model (unless they changed it recently):
< Assuming that take your friend >
  • They require an unpaid period where you're bound with them whilst they look for a placement for you, during which, you're expected to turn up at one of their offices (at your expense) and learn some skills (they make some learning material and taught classroom sessions available)
  • They require a two year commitment (+ unpaid period) up front, with a punitive cost to break the commitment
  • They pay you a flat salary and try and hire you out to the highest paying client, so their profit comes from the difference (if you end up at something like an investment bank, the difference can be large). What you get out of it is the experience of working at somewhere with some reputation.

Working with them can be quite soul-destroying, but if you get lucky and land a placement with a large firm, it can pay off, but it's very much an if. I personally wouldn't recommend it, but I post only to make you aware of the option.
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I interviewed for them, and was utterly disgusted by the company and their hiring tactics. The literally said "you won't get a job at any of the big companies because you're not good enough". I later received job offers from some of the companies they said I couldn't get a job at, and am working for one of them now.

I didn't meet a single member of technical, managerial or business admin type staff the day I was there, they were all sales people/recruitment consultants.

They teach you SQL, bash and something else basic for a month or so - unpaid - and at the end of that you are £20k in debt to them, which is written off in full after two years of employment with them. You are not guaranteed a placement at the end of that, and have to take the first thing they offer you, even if its not suited to you.

There are some "success" stories, of people being taken on by the large firms that they are slave to for two years. I was told that a brother of one of fellow interviewees was now earning £40k at an investment bank in IT. I decided not to tell him that that is the starting salary for graduate entrants there.

I was offered a job support for financial trading software before I had started my first interview, which shows that they really don't care about who they get in to do the various roles. Its all about bringing in a large amount of desperate graduates and locking them into work for 2 years with a debt they can't repay on the salary they give to them.

Don't go down this route, it is corporate slavery.
 
Tone1979 said:
What is his salary expectation?
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He's being reasonable. He's on middle 20s at the moment (I think), and is fully aware he will have to take a pay-cut. It's just how bad, as if it's in the city, he'll also have to factor in rail costs, so 18k becomes about 15k and being a sole provider for his wife and child, it becomes difficult.
 
some potential courses:

CCNA via the OU - might be useful after the N+ course, doing it with the OU looks like it would get you 60 credits which you could use later towards a degree or diploma too....

http://www.open.ac.uk/courses/modules/t216

networking course on udacity - free (for 14 days) then you'd have to pay, though again it's a modest fee

https://www.udacity.com/course/ud436

Also - this free linux course might be useful;

https://www.edx.org/course/linuxfoundationx/linuxfoundationx-lfs101x-introduction-1621

Lastly I'll throw this one in here - graduate diploma in Information Systems - cost 1.5k... It isn't a masters (and as it is via their distance learning program it is very much self study albeit with proper exams) but it is an academic qualification from a well respected university - looks like it is aimed at general graduates. Fact is HR people like buzz words, brands etc... also doing courses in your spare time is usually respected... Might be worth, once he's in an IT role, getting some IT related academic qualification on the CV to put above the undergrad degree... shows the transition, career intent etc..

http://www.londoninternational.ac.u...iploma-graduates-information-systems#overview

If he gets a bit more knowledge credibility and a bit of experience then he could perhaps sell a good story about his management experience within retail and maybe use it to move into better paying management roles within IT.
 
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Judgeneo said:
They teach you SQL, bash and something else basic for a month or so - unpaid - and at the end of that you are £20k in debt to them, which is written off in full after two years of employment with them. You are not guaranteed a placement at the end of that, and have to take the first thing they offer you, even if its not suited to you.
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That sounds horrendous.... I do have to wonder how enforceable it is though - claiming a huge cost for training they provided themselves seems pretty dubious.
 
Nix - he's been in touch and I've received his CV. I'll go over it with him tomorrow and see if I can arrange an interview.
 
I'm sure a teen will be along to correct me about not being on trend but:

MlWLQgj.jpg
 
Judgeneo said:
I interviewed for them, and was utterly disgusted by the company and their hiring tactics. The literally said "you won't get a job at any of the big companies because you're not good enough". I later received job offers from some of the companies they said I couldn't get a job at, and am working for one of them now.

I didn't meet a single member of technical, managerial or business admin type staff the day I was there, they were all sales people/recruitment consultants.

They teach you SQL, bash and something else basic for a month or so - unpaid - and at the end of that you are £20k in debt to them, which is written off in full after two years of employment with them. You are not guaranteed a placement at the end of that, and have to take the first thing they offer you, even if its not suited to you.

There are some "success" stories, of people being taken on by the large firms that they are slave to for two years. I was told that a brother of one of fellow interviewees was now earning £40k at an investment bank in IT. I decided not to tell him that that is the starting salary for graduate entrants there.

I was offered a job support for financial trading software before I had started my first interview, which shows that they really don't care about who they get in to do the various roles. Its all about bringing in a large amount of desperate graduates and locking them into work for 2 years with a debt they can't repay on the salary they give to them.

Don't go down this route, it is corporate slavery.
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I don't disagree with this assessment, and as I said, I wouldn't recommend them. I only post because that's an option I'm aware of. And agreed, getting onto a graduate starting salary after working for 2 years isn't exactly that much of a success. But on the flip side, with no relevant qualifications and no relevant experience, I can't think of anything obvious that OP's friend can do in 2 years that'll qualify him for a decent IT job.

dowie said:
That sounds horrendous.... I do have to wonder how enforceable it is though - claiming a huge cost for training they provided themselves seems pretty dubious.
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Legally, I'm not sure. But put it this way, for a decent job with a good salary, would you hire a graduate with say a year worth of experience who is in some legal dispute with his last employers? Probably not. If there's any other candidates available, you'd pick them first. Even if it wasn't enforceable, there's nowhere obvious to go.
 
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