Wheel Chair vs Pushchairs

[Castiel]

There is legislation in place which means they have to provide a minimum provision for wheelchair users, there is no such legislation for pushchairs and thus they are discretionary and available to use when no wheelchair user is present. As soon as that situation changed then the driver should have enforced the rule and told her to move.

There is no rule to enforce, that is why the high court need to clarify this as Government guidance says the opposite. The minimum provision under the DDA for buses doesn't affect Operators until 2017 for DD buses and 2016 for SD buses..they can still operate buses without any provision at all until that time unless contracted otherwise.

How does the driver enforce this anyway? He asked her to move and she refused..then what?

http://webarchive.nationalarchives....conduct/conductofdriversinspectorsan5991.html

You must allow a wheelchair user to board the bus when the wheelchair space is unoccupied. The only exception is if the person's wheelchair is too large or if you think it's unsuitable to have on board your bus. For example, if the battery on an electric wheelchair is leaking acid.

Where other passengers are occupying the wheelchair space you should ask them to move to allow a wheelchair user to board. You do not have to let the wheelchair user on if the carrying capacity - seated or standing - would then be exceeded. Other passengers on the bus aren't obliged to move, and you're not expected to make them.

Wheelchair users should be able to get on and off without your help on most buses.

 

[Schlong&Stable]

And if the bus is full to capacity and wheelchair user needs to get on, should the non-disabled people standing in the wheelchair area be "ejected" from the bus to make space for them?

Should a disabled bay in a car park be reserved for disabled people if all the other spots are full? You either have reserved spots or not.

So to give a more direct answer to your question: Yes. The bus driver should not accept more passengers than they can carry whilst keeping that spot free.

How does the driver enforce this anyway? He asked her to move and she refused..then what?

The police can and should remove her. Not because she's in a disabled spot, but because she refuses to comply with the bus driver.

 

[Burnsy2023]

How does the driver enforce this anyway? He asked her to move and she refused..then what?

Could have asked her to leave the bus. It'd be a PR nightmare but ultimately the driver has that choice.

 

[Amp34]

Oh just shut up.

Really? "Sorry you dont have a car better have that abortion..." Or "Oops didnt realise I was heavily pregnant, can't afford a car so I will put up for adoption". Because Disabled people are valued higher than babies or are babies valued higher than disabled people? Or what about just treat everyone equally? If a bus/tube/train is full I can't get on and I get the next one. If the one and only space that is supposed to accomodate wheel chairs and push chairs is full then you can't get on and you will have to wait for the next one.

You appear to misunderstand what an abortion is. In the UK you can have an abortion up to the point doctors believe an embryo/fetus (not baby) could potentially survive on its own. Up until that point the embryo/fetus is essentially a tumor/parasite living off the hosts nutrients. It's not a baby, it doesn't have intelligence, it doesn't have a chance of living outside of the host. Only our society (mostly due to religion) sees anything different...

The point you're also missing is the bus had a clear sign stating wheelchairs had priority, I.e. it was a wheelchair space that could be used by pushchairs when not in use.

 

[Yaayuh!]

Being the arse that i am. If i was in a bad mood and saw that happen, I would've made a loud noise on the bus to wake up the child and made a comment like: "He's awake now, so what's the problem?".

 

[Diddums]

Go back and read Burnsy's post. Then read my reply. Then read your reply to that. If you still can't see how you're being retarded, you should probably be euthanised to limit your impact on successive generations.

Well aren't you just a lovely considerate person. I bet your life of loneliness and hatred must be a right laugh. Congratulations on being the textbook definition of "loser". I can only hope that your choices in life mean that your kind die out so the rest of progressive humanity can live on.

EDIT:

Nevermind. This abomination of what you would call "language" sums you up perfectly:

r u mad bro? u sound mad.

No need to divulge this further, I think anyone with more than two brain cells can make up their own mind about you, you've done all the leg work for me.

 

[cheesyboy]

The police can and should remove her. Not because she's in a disabled spot, but because she refuses to comply with the bus driver.

I'm pretty much going to say I'm not happy with the idea that refusing to give up a seat on a bus should be a criminal matter. That's going a bit far, surely?

What next; police intervention for walking too slowly? For failing to put your McDonalds tray in the right place?

 

[Castiel]

Could have asked her to leave the bus. It'd be a PR nightmare but ultimately the driver has that choice.

No he doesn't. read the guidance given by the government under the DDA.

You must allow a wheelchair user to board the bus when the wheelchair space is unoccupied. The only exception is if the person's wheelchair is too large or if you think it's unsuitable to have on board your bus. For example, if the battery on an electric wheelchair is leaking acid.

Where other passengers are occupying the wheelchair space you should ask them to move to allow a wheelchair user to board. You do not have to let the wheelchair user on if the carrying capacity - seated or standing - would then be exceeded. Other passengers on the bus aren't obliged to move, and you're not expected to make them.

Wheelchair users should be able to get on and off without your help on most buses.

Everyone saying the driver can and should remove her from the bus is simply wrong.

 

[Haggisman]

Should a disabled bay in a car park be reserved for disabled people if all the other spots are full? You either have reserved spots or not.

So to give a more direct answer to your question: Yes. The bus driver should not accept more passengers than they can carry whilst keeping that spot free.

I'll concede that's a good argument, but it doesn't address the issue of insufficient capacity for multiple wheelchair users/pushchair users, and would essentially result in parents with pushchairs being unable to use public transport, not to mention the increase in bus fares due to the requirement to run buses at reduced capacity

 

[fez]

This is all going to end in a daily mail article where the local council ends up paying for a taxi for a mum and her kids because of the risk of being kicked off a bus when the disabled mafia move in. I can see it now

 

[cheesyboy]

You appear to misunderstand what an abortion is. In the UK you can have an abortion up to the point doctors believe an embryo/fetus (not baby) could potentially survive on its own. Up until that point the embryo/fetus is essentially a tumor/parasite living off the hosts nutrients. It's not a baby, it doesn't have intelligence, it doesn't have a chance of living outside of the host. Only our society (mostly due to religion) sees anything different...

I can't decide if this post makes you sound like a total nutjob or a total loser. Either way, it's not relevant and is just stupid in the context of the discussion.

 

[Schlong&Stable]

You appear to misunderstand what an abortion is. In the UK you can have an abortion up to the point doctors believe an embryo/fetus (not baby) could potentially survive on its own. Up until that point the embryo/fetus is essentially a tumor/parasite living off the hosts nutrients. It's not a baby, it doesn't have intelligence, it doesn't have a chance of living outside of the host. Only our society (mostly due to religion) sees anything different...

There is no scientific consensus on when life begins, which is why its a contentious issue. The suggestion that people might find abortion to be immoral is primarily due to religious conviction is bizarre. Do you think parents grieve over miscarriages because of religious conviction...?

And I say this as someone who is reasonably pro-choice.

 

[Amp34]

What is the point you are making with this rant?

That some parents appear to have this superiority about them... The world does not revolve around them because they chose to have a child (or several). They made a choice and they need to live with it. If that means they have to get off a bus (or more precisely be inconvenienced) because someone who most likely didn't have a choice needs to get on and into a space dedicated to them then so be it. Making up intricate excuses as to why they should not is not acceptable IMO.

 

[LOAM]

There is no rule to enforce, that is why the high court need to clarify this as Government guidance says the opposite. The minimum provision under the DDA for buses doesn't affect Operators until 2017 for DD buses and 2016 for SD buses..they can still operate buses without any provision at all until that time unless contracted otherwise.

How does the driver enforce this anyway? He asked her to move and she refused..then what?

http://webarchive.nationalarchives....conduct/conductofdriversinspectorsan5991.html

The equality act 2010 gives disabled a legal right to protection from discrimination (this includes access to and use of public transport). Parents with pushchairs are not given that status because they are deemed to have other options (fold away / child on lap for example). You are right in the legal minimum provision not being enforced until 2017 but disabled users still take priority over non disabled because of the 2010 act.

 

[Castiel]

The equality act 2010 gives disabled people protected status giving wheelchair users a legal right to protection from discrimination (this includes access to and use of public transport). Parents with pushchairs are not given that status because they are deemed to have other options (fold away / child on lap for example).

Read the legislation PSVAR and the DoT guidance on how to implement it.

Thus why this needs legal clarification.

 

[Diddums]

It's a pretty tragic state of affairs when a law needs to be passed stating that people with disabilities are just as entitled to basic amenities as those who aren't.

 

[Schlong&Stable]

I'll concede that's a good argument, but it doesn't address the issue of insufficient capacity for multiple wheelchair users/pushchair users, and would essentially result in parents with pushchairs being unable to use public transport, not to mention the increase in bus fares due to the requirement to run buses at reduced capacity

If the wheelchair spot is taken, then they cannot accept another wheelchair user. If a push chair is in the spot, they need to fold up the chair and put it in the area reserved for exactly that.

I'm a bit of a Social Darwinian, but even I don't find this a complicated issue. The most able bodied can make room for the least abled. Mothers have managed to hold babies in much worse conditions than the number 42 bus. I think they can manage.

 

[Amp34]

I can't decide if this post makes you sound like a total nutjob or a total loser. Either way, it's not relevant and is just stupid in the context of the discussion.

Sorry for bringing science into the conversation. The guy didn't appear to understand the difference between an embryo/fetus and a baby. I understand it's a contentious issue but there is a reason abortion is allowed in the UK and there are cutoffs for it at certain points.

In the UK you choose to have a baby, even if you accidentally get pregnant. That's the end of that conversation.

 

[Burnsy2023]

No he doesn't. read the guidance given by the government under the DDA.

Everyone saying the driver can and should remove her from the bus is simply wrong.

I'm not saying the should just that they can. In London I would argue that this comes under "No person shall molest or wilfully interfere with the comfort or convenience of any person on the premises" under the TFL bylaws. If it were outside of London then most T&Cs of travel will cover conduct that inconveniences or affects the comfort of other passengers, which I would argue this would.

Whilst the guidance may be different, it doesn't stop drivers from using the context to make other decisions.

 

[Amp34]

There is no scientific consensus on when life begins, which is why its a contentious issue. The suggestion that people might find abortion to be immoral is primarily due to religious conviction is bizarre. Do you think parents grieve over miscarriages because of religious conviction...?

And I say this as someone who is reasonably pro-choice.

Yet the current limit (for non parent life threatening issues) is set by the statistical probability of the fetus surviving if it is born.