Toyota unveils first hydrogen-powered car called Mirai

[Firestar_3x]

Not at all. It's pretty obvious things start from nothing. A few stations does not make an infrastructure.
There is no political will for h2, there's almost zero business support for h2, there's no plans for large hydrogen producing plants, which would almost certainly be nuclear and take over a decade to build. The h2 life cycle is horrendously inefficient compared to electricity.
I'm not saying it can't be built, I'm saying like other format wars, it has already lost.

This isn't like HD-DVD vs Blu-ray, the time for adoption by people isn't 5 years, it's the next 25 years.

Petrol cars won't disappear overnight, battery cars won't take anything like 50% market share in the next decade, new nuclear stations are well on the way, so lots of market share to play for!

Battery tech as we all know has major disadvantages, capacity, charge time and life being reduced due to fast charging being some, people like myself who actually want / need a car with range welcome an alternative solution not fight against it.

 

[Glaucus]

This isn't like HD-DVD vs Blu-ray, the time for adoption by people isn't 5 years, it's the next 25 years.

Petrol cars won't disappear overnight, battery cars won't take anything like 50% market share in the next decade, new nuclear stations are well on the way, so lots of market share to play for!

Battery tech as we all know has major disadvantages, capacity, charge time and life being reduced due to fast charging being some, people like myself who actually want / need a car with range welcome an alternative solution.

No petrol cars won't disappear over night.
No electric won't get such high market shares over the next decade.
No there aren't many nuclear power stations being planned there's a few off which many are struggling with funding and planning permission and have experience decades of delays.
Battery tech however is evolving and will continue to grow.
While political powers, grants etc are all aimed at electric.

 

[alx]

I agree with Glaucus.

Hydrogren isn't really a fuel, it's an energy carrier as rarely occurs naturally on it's own and has to be produced from water or as a byproduct of industrial process. In the case of eletrolysis you need to put more energy in (in the form of electricity) then you get out as energy from hydrogen so you're better just to cut out the middle man (hydrogen) and use the electricity to power cars.

Again, the infrastructure is hardly an easy task from an engineering/safety view point especially when with electricity you already have national grids. To me it seems the cost and effort would be better spent on batteries and electric cars rather than starting from scratch with a hydrogen infrastructure.

Thirdly, rather you than me sitting above two 700bar hydrogen tanks. I've seen first hand hydrocarbon gas leaks at 70bar and that's frightening enough, let along 700 bar of hydrogen. I'm sure they're safe enough, but 700bar is 700bar - it's very high pressure.

 

[Skeeter]

It is a shame that this forums biggest supporter of electric cars is also the worst at typing coherent sentences.

I'm sure we could have some interesting discussions about alternative fuels, but unfortunately everyone's efforts are consumed by simply trying to decipher what Glaucus is trying to say.

 

[Lima]

When they can create an iphone battery that lasts longer than a day I'll have faith that electric cars are the way forward. Until then I'll happily bet my money that hydrogen cars will be the breakthrough people are after, not electric. Battery technology is not advanced enough to make it a viable solution at the moment IMO.

 

[Firestar_3x]

Thirdly, rather you than me sitting above two 700bar hydrogen tanks. I've seen first hand hydrocarbon gas leaks at 70bar and that's frightening enough, let along 700 bar of hydrogen. I'm sure they're safe enough, but 700bar is 700bar - it's very high pressure.

People dive with 300bar scuba tanks attached directly to them, from a transportation risk point of view we can already produce pressure vessels which will take a serious impact before rupturing, this helps sort the crash impact issue.

The main problem is BLEVE, but if you have a flame impinging on the tank for long enough to cause this, may a suggest you are either already dead from the crash or far enough away that it's not too much of an issue anyway.

People already drive around with LPG tanks in the boot, i've not read too many news articles of them being bombs on wheels.

 

[Jez]

Glaucus, we have been over this ground before.

Electric car charging at home with the current power infrastructure is simply not possible en masse. If you begin to think that we have the infrastructure for electric cars being possible then you are completely deluded, the entire supply infrastructure will need significant overhaul, at a cost of billions. Your argument that the infrastructure is in place is an utter nonsense.

 

[Skeeter]

When they can create an iphone battery that lasts longer than a day I'll have faith that electric cars are the way forward. Until then I'll happily bet my money that hydrogen cars will be the breakthrough people are after, not electric. Battery technology is not advanced enough to make it a viable solution at the moment IMO.

The issue isn't battery technology, its charging technology.

The Tesla S thread convinced me that home charging is nothing more than a 'nice to have' and simply cannot be the way forward (edit, for the reasons Jez states above). Public/commercial charging is better, but still has massive limitations that don't look like they will be solved soon. Filling a container with fuel that you convert to energy as you go will always be quicker than filling a battery with energy that has already been produced.

Hydrogen solves a lot of the problems of electric cars, but then brings with it a huge pile of its own issues.

 

[Glaucus]

Glaucus, we have been over this ground before.

Electric car charging at home with the current power infrastructure is simply not possible en masse. If you begin to think that we have the infrastructure for electric cars being possible then you are completely deluded, the entire supply infrastructure will need significant overhaul, at a cost of billions. Your argument that the infrastructure is in place is an utter nonsense.

The infrastructure is far more advanced than hydrogen infrastructure, and no I do not think everyone can just switch to electric over night. we've been over this before the national grid is continually updated, what is it 3bn a year investment.

 

[Jez]

It simply isnt, Glaucus. Yes the infrastructure receives continual upgrade and maintenance, of course it does, but this doesnt touch the surface of the absolutely gigantic investment which would be required to overhaul just about _every_ substation and local transformer, along with almost every power conductor in the entire country. Its simply not designed in any shape or form to support the massive loads which multiple electric vehicles per household would require to draw, its orders of magnitude away from ever getting there. Home charging is absolutely not an answer to anything.

I am not suggesting that i have any answers to the problems presented here, but i do understand power infrastructure to the extent that i know that home charging cannot happen, probably ever, as it is presented to us today.

 

[alx]

People dive with 300bar scuba tanks attached directly to them, from a transportation risk point of view we can already produce pressure vessels which will take a serious impact before rupturing, this helps sort the crash impact issue.

The main problem is BLEVE, but if you have a flame impinging on the tank for long enough to cause this, may a suggest you are either already dead from the crash or far enough away that it's not too much of an issue anyway.

People already drive around with LPG tanks in the boot, i've not read too many news articles of them being bombs on wheels.

Fair enough, I was probably exaggerating slightly - if it wasn't safe I doubt they'd bring a car to market.

Would be interesting know the price of hydrogen (p/L) currently. The tanks on the Mirai are 122L in total, giving a range of ~300 miles according to the press releases.

 

[Skeeter]

It simply isnt, Glaucus. Yes the infrastructure receives continual upgrade and maintenance, of course it does, but this doesnt touch the surface of the absolutely gigantic investment which would be required to overhaul just about _every_ substation and local transformer, along with almost every power conductor in the entire country. Its simply not designed in any shape or form to support the massive loads which multiple electric vehicles per household would require to draw, its orders of magnitude away from ever getting there. Home charging is absolutely not an answer to anything.

I am not suggesting that i have any answers to the problems presented here, but i do understand power infrastructure.

Wouldn't you also need to significantly increase the power feeds into each individual property to be able to use anything above a standard slow charger?

And this is before you start working out how many households in the UK could actually have home charging, which is going to be a small percentage anyway.

 

[Jez]

I obviously wont claim to understand hydrogen cars at all, but what exactly is achieved by the hydrogen car? What benefit does it bring over simply burning......gasoline? Producing hydrogen is incredibly dirty and is not at all efficient, is it?

 

[Jez]

Wouldn't you also need to significantly increase the power feeds into each individual property to be able to use anything above a standard slow charger?

And this is before you start working out how many households in the UK could actually have home charging, which is going to be a small percentage anyway.

The "last mile" connections would all need upgrading yes, over the entire country. That is an utter drop in the ocean compared with the transformer infrastructure and mass (HV) conductors though.

 

[Skeeter]

I obviously wont claim to understand hydrogen cars at all, but what exactly is achieved by the hydrogen car? What benefit does it bring over simply burning......gasoline? Producing hydrogen is incredibly dirty and is not at all efficient, is it?

From what I understand, thats about right.

Hydrogen cars have the same sort of fill up times and ranges as petrol cars, so best electric cars in terms of practicality to the end user, but then have a mountain of other problems behind the scenes that need to be tackled for it to become any way mainstream.

 

[Jez]

From what I understand, thats about right.

Hydrogen cars have the same sort of fill up times and ranges as petrol cars, so best electric cars in terms of practicality to the end user, but then have a mountain of other problems behind the scenes that need to be tackled for it to become any way mainstream.

So Hydrogen (wiki source) can be produced from natural gas with approx 80% efficiency. We then have the inefficiency of the end vehicle.

I suppose the argument must be that compared with a 25-30% efficient gasoline engine, this combined efficiency is very good?

It doesnt solve the non renewable problem though, does it, if you are effectively using natural gas as the source?

 

[Skeeter]

Electric motors are pretty efficient, aren't they?

To me the solution is a combination. Have an electric car powered by electric (in wheel, as these seem to be the best?) motors with electricity coming from a battery onboard. But make that battery small, and have it charged by 'something' that generates electricity from a fuel, and then fill the car with this fuel.

A petrol engine just chugging along at a constant rpm running a generator is a lot more efficient than directly connecting it to the drive of a car . The range extender cars where the petrol motor just hums away generating electricity are far more efficient in getting distance from an amount of fuel than a normal car.

So if you could replace that petrol generator with something cleaner that uses renewable energy, you have the answer. Fill your car with fuel for the generator, the generator generates electricity onboard, and that electricity powers the car. Simples.

Except.... I've no idea what the 'something' in place of a generator should be . Jaguar toyed with gas turbines, that would be fun

 

[SKILL]

So Hydrogen (wiki source) can be produced from natural gas with approx 80% efficiency. We then have the inefficiency of the end vehicle.

I suppose the argument must be that compared with a 25-30% efficient gasoline engine, this combined efficiency is very good?

It doesnt solve the non renewable problem though, does it, if you are effectively using natural gas as the source?

You can also 'generate' Hydrogen via electrolysis, which then makes it as clean as the power station(s) producing the electricity needed, so combined with nuclear or renewables for the power source it would be relatively clean.

It even works to some extent with the variability of renewables that makes them far from ideal for powering homes/businesses.

Hydrogen cars seem far more sensible, but not without a huge range of issues, than full electric, but hybrids seem a more interim solution.

Battery tech is improving but not at a particularly fast rate for commercial uses, so full electric cars still suffer from the range and refill/charge issues, either Hydrogen or just Hybrid cars don't.

 

[lemonade]

Why bother, there's no infrastructure and that's not going to change. Mean while electric infrastructure continues to rapidly grow. On top of that hydrogen is expensive to produce, hard to transport and hard to store.

If theres no product out there for it then there wont be need for an infrastructure, once there is a product out then it will create demand for an infrastructure, it's at its infancy so give it time.

Honda have been running hydrogen cars in the States and there was development for infrastructure there, not at a mass scale as it wasnt a mass produced car.

 

[alx]

So Hydrogen (wiki source) can be produced from natural gas with approx 80% efficiency. We then have the inefficiency of the end vehicle.

I suppose the argument must be that compared with a 25-30% efficient gasoline engine, this combined efficiency is very good?

It doesnt solve the non renewable problem though, does it, if you are effectively using natural gas as the source?

Exactly.

Either you produce hydrogen with hydrocarbons, which sort of defeats the point of having a car with zero emissions, or you produce hydrogen via electrolosis (60-80% efficient) but then where do you get the electricity from? And if you're using electricity why not cut out the middleman and go straight from power generation to car battery rather than using hydrogen as a middle step.