Justified or gun happy?

TheStarkFactor · 27 Nov 2014 at 10:36

Martini1991 said:
There's obviously a fail in parenting. Which highlight a rather deeper global social problem.

While I don't want to go as far as to say that the officer murdered him, I do feel he should be prosecuted.

Surely he could have went for a none lethal shot (Given how close he was), or taser from out of the window (You know, given how he kind of shot the kid as he was coming out of the car, could have used the taser on him).

They're not trained to deliver "non leathal" shots.

If they shoot, they aim for the torso, also, what a lot ofpeople might think are "non leathal" shots can actually yield the same lethal results as shooting someone in the torso i.e. shooting someone in the leg (a highly vascular area and likely to lead to major blood loss).

I also imagine that the user of a taser is counter indicitive in a situation whereby someone is suspected of having a firearm.

Martini1991 · 27 Nov 2014 at 10:37

balky12 said:
I might be wrong here. But why does everyone assume that every police officer has a taser on them? Pretty sure that is not the case, and IF they did, it wouldn't be on their persons, it would be under lock and key in the car somewhere?

Also non-lethal shots are things of fantasies. Hollywood rubbish.

The problem with prosecuting is that precedents are then set. Prosecute here and then every time a policemen shoots someone in public with a BB gun then there will be grounds for prosecution.

So, you wouldn't class a shot to the foot as a none lethal shot?

And if they're not equipped to deal with a situation none lethally, then surely that's a flaw in the system.

This situation never needed to end lethally, it did. Ergo there's a problem.

TheStarkFactor · 27 Nov 2014 at 10:39

Martini1991 said:
So, you wouldn't class a shot to the foot as a none lethal shot?

No professional military or police training in the entire world would advocate shooting someone in the foot as a means of incapacitation.

Martini1991 · 27 Nov 2014 at 10:39

TheStarkFactor said:
They're not trained to deliver "non leathal" shots.

If they shoot, they aim for the torso, also, what a lot ofpeople might think are "non leathal" shots can actually yield the same lethal results as shooting someone in the torso i.e. shooting someone in the leg (a highly vascular area and likely to lead to major blood loss).

I also imagine that the user of a taser is counter indicitive in a situation whereby someone is suspected of having a firearm.

We've all watched enough of "I've got a knife, if I cut, you'll bleed out in XX" to know that

TheStarkFactor · 27 Nov 2014 at 10:40

Martini1991 said:
We've all watched enough of "I've got a knife, if I cut, you'll bleed out in XX" to know that

Don't get the reference, but you see my point about "non leathal" shots, in practise it can't and doesn't happen.

Martini1991 · 27 Nov 2014 at 10:41

TheStarkFactor said:
No professional military or police training in the entire world would advocate shooting someone in the foot as a means of incapacitation.

That doesn't stop him from doing so, because the situation isn't a bog standard one due to the age of the possible offender.

TheStarkFactor · 27 Nov 2014 at 10:41

Martini1991 said:
That doesn't stop him from doing so, because the situation isn't a bog standard one due to the age of the possible offender.

There is no such thing as a bog standard situation, every situation is different, but there is one thing that remains the same, your training, hence why we have the outcome that we do.

Metallifux · 27 Nov 2014 at 10:42

Efour said:
i used to play with a bb gun that looked like a desert eagle. Got stopped by the police for running around the street with it. Thinking back i'm lucky to be alive if it were America id probably have been shot too.

On the other hand I'm guessing faced with armed police you would have put your hands up when ordered instead of reaching for your replica weapon.

balky12 · 27 Nov 2014 at 10:42

Martini1991 said:
So, you wouldn't class a shot to the foot as a none lethal shot?

And if they're not equipped to deal with a situation none lethally, then surely that's a flaw in the system.

This situation never needed to end lethally, it did. Ergo there's a problem.

You ever fired a gun before? Shooting someone in the foot with a pistol requires a huge amount of skill. You miss? Then it ricochets god knows where. The fundemental reason for shooting someone is to neutralise the threat. Shooting them in the foot does not achieve this, its more likely to aggitate things. You have to remember, the police do not know this weapon is a BB gun.

Tasering isn't 100% non-lethal either. I imagine the risks are quite high on a 12 year old as well.

Martini1991 · 27 Nov 2014 at 10:43

balky12 said:
You ever fired a gun before? Shooting someone in the foot with a pistol requires a huge amount of skill. You miss? Then it ricochets god knows where. The fundemental reason for shooting someone is to neutralise the threat. Shooting them in the foot does not achieve this, its more likely to aggitate things. You have to remember, the police do not know this weapon is a BB gun.

Tasering isn't 10% non-lethal either. I imagine the risks are quite high on a 12 year old as well.

I'm not suggesting it's perfect. But it's better than putting a 12 year old in the ground.

Martini1991 · 27 Nov 2014 at 10:45

Metallifux said:
On the other hand I'm guessing faced with armed police you would have put your hands up when ordered instead of reaching for your replica weapon.

If you've seen the video he isn't "faced".

He's literally shot as the first officer's coming out of the car, the other isn't even out as the kid's had the kill shot.

Martini1991 · 27 Nov 2014 at 10:46

TheStarkFactor said:
There is no such thing as a bog standard situation, every situation is different, but there is one thing that remains the same, your training, hence why we have the outcome that we do.

Fair enough.

But there's no way I can ever say (To myself) that what happened as per that CCTV could be justified.

Haggisman · 27 Nov 2014 at 10:50

Martini1991 said:
Surely he could have went for a none lethal shot

Please can we have a script on the forum that detects whenever someone posts something like this, and replaces the entirety of that post with the text "I don't have a clue what I'm talking about"?

Honestly, the number of times this has been posted and responded to in this (and the Michael Brown) thread, I'm starting to wonder if half the people replying have actually read any of the previous posts... :rolleyes:

RoboCod · 27 Nov 2014 at 10:53

Shoot in the foot? This thread is making some light entertainment!

WillyNelson · 27 Nov 2014 at 10:54

Martini1991 said:
Even today if I was doing no wrong, I wouldn't just simply "obey". It'd never cross my mind that someone's going to put me down.

Have you ever been confronted by armed police officers?

I have, aged 19. I was stopped in my car by 2 ARVs (4 officers with MP5s), a dog unit, numerous support vehicles, air support and a very angry police Inspector. From the instant I realised they were targeting my car I had no other thought than being completely compliant.

Martini1991 · 27 Nov 2014 at 10:56

WillyNelson said:
Have you ever been confronted by armed police officers?

I have, aged 19. I was stopped in my car by 2 ARVs (4 officers with MP5s), a dog unit, numerous support vehicles, air support and a very angry police Inspector. From the instant I realised they were targeting my car I had no other thought than being completely compliant.

Confronted by armed police officers, pointing at me would make me compliant.
Being told to obey from a car (Or just when they're talking to me) wouldn't make me compliant. I don't respond to "orders" being barked at me.

Again, if you've seen the CCTV, the kid wasn't "confronted" the officer literally shot him within a second of being out of the car.

In his situation, I'd never imagine being shot at.

In yours. I would. Your situation being radically different to a point they're not directly comparable.

balky12 · 27 Nov 2014 at 10:57

WillyNelson said:
Have you ever been confronted by armed police officers?

I have, aged 19. I was stopped in my car by 2 ARVs (4 officers with MP5s), a dog unit, numerous support vehicles, air support and a very angry police Inspector. From the instant I realised they were targeting my car I had no other thought than being completely compliant.

May I ask what for

balky12 · 27 Nov 2014 at 11:00

Martini1991 said:
I don't respond to "orders" being barked at me.

You self-employed?

Single?

Does it all kick off everytime you go through airport security?

Martini1991 · 27 Nov 2014 at 11:02

balky12 said:
You self-employed?

Single?

Does it all kick off everytime you go through airport security?

Ha.

cheesyboy · 27 Nov 2014 at 11:09

The scary thing about this, in light of the video, is that the police were willing to shoot a child in the face without even seeing a gun - just on the back of a report from a member of the public and the child moving his hand toward his waistband.