How do we allow the world to be like this?

AlecR said:
The primary idea of my whole argument was the issue of large business, which you have admitted would still be a problem.

Veganism therefore is not a solution.
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Yes but the best way to control a large business is with money. Don't buy into their practices so more ethical companies can take control. The lesser of two evils.

Domi said:
less important issues though ?

If we are all Vegan and nobody was starving.

The worlds problems are deeper than that though if no one is starving we have more people dying from disease.

We solve that and we are looking at drinking water

Then sanitation 2+ billion people do not have access to proper sanitation ie a toilet.

Is this really the fault of capitalism ?

Frankly for me it is because we all just do not care enough , we all speak out and say the right things when needed but if a political party came along and said for example we raise income tax by 3% and the moneys goes to world sanitation , disease and Famine projects people would not vote for it.

Honestly just read the comments people make about the pittance the UK gives out in overseas aid in a hundred threads on this forum to understand the fault is not really with the evil corporations , it is with us.

The really sad bit is the UK is actually one of the better countries in the world for this.
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You know, the world’s largest 'feed the hungry' organization is called Food for Life Global. Look them up online. They've been around over 10 years. Also the 2nd largest group on the planet doing 'feed the hungry' stuff.. is Plenty. Plenty.org is their website. Both are vegetarian groups because they feed 20 to 30 times the amount of people when they use vegetarian food than when groups use meat.

Solve food and water it's a great start. People should at least not be dying from malnutrition like they are.

Janesy B said:
How does veganism fix the fact that every mass produced bit of food is still loaded up with sugar and other rubbish?
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By not buying that crap. The problem is we are not eating real food anymore. Vote with your wallet and buy whole, ripe, raw, fresh organic food instead. If people buy real bananas instead of banana lolli pops the banana loli pops will simply not be sold because there is no demand. Even the cheaper options of potatoes, rice, pasta etc are not loaded up with rubbish. Not as healthy as fruit, greens, nuts and seeds but far better than animal products / processed foods.
 
I have already stated I am not Vegan and certainly do not believe in it.

However if all everybody ate was easily grown grain crops , fruit and vegetables we could easily wipe out famine world wide.

My argument is we simply choose not to and that goes for almost everything else the evil corporations sell to us.
 
I do indeed know exactly what I meant the cheapest most efficient way to make food is to grow simple crops and eat them as is that is the vegan way surely ?

I cannot even see what you find wrong with that.
 
How many field mice and other cute little critters have to die in the blades of combine harvesters just so those damn vegans can eat their grains and pulses?
 
Veganisim/Vegetarianism is only practical when supported by an industrialised agricultural system that, ironically, your typical vegetarian/Vegan will profess to despise!

Go Figure!
 
Nate Silvers said:
Save the planet go vegan.
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We are omnivores, always have been, always will be. Admittedly us westerners could eat less meat but meat is a natural part of our diet...

Alternatively we could get to the root cause of the problem, too many people. We need to reduce our overpopulation and resource consumption. 2-3 Billion (max) living in comfort rather than most of 7+ billion living (mostly) in poverty, while ravaging the worlds resources and destroying the planet for those other organisms that share this world.
 
AlecR said:
There would still (in my opinion) be large corporations that would control the industry if everybody was a vegan - somebody would try to capitalise on it, that's what business is. In my view you're not solving a problem, more replacing it with a different problem that results in the same issues.
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Instead we would be shopping down even more forest for soya and Palm oil... Growing each of them accounts for between 10-20% (each) of the deforested land each year... Cattle are just as bad.

Unfortunately people have to eat, and while it is more efficient (for land useage) to eat grains rather than meat fed grains, the majority of today's population get their main source of protein from fish... Which is why fish stocks around the world have plummeted. The doubling of our population in about 50 years will do that to you...
 
Nate Silvers said:
Food Inc is an expose´on agribusiness. Veganism relates massively. It's full of things that I already knew, some of which inspired me to become a vegetarian 10 long years ago, and others that I did not. I know some people who haven't eaten meat since watching Food Inc.

Forks Over Knives is a great documentary similar to Food Inc except it's filmed through the vegan lens (more focused on the benefits of eating plants).

Regarding agriculture
http://www.veganoutreach.org/whyvegan/environment.html

Food, Inc. does a great service to the vegan cause, because as long as agribusiness is corrupt, powerful, and gigantic, veganism will always be on society’s fringes.

You really don't think veganism solves any problems relating to the planet, people and animals then?
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Except vegans eat food. Unless you grow your own you will still be buying the vast majority of your food from agribusiness... The fact you don't seem to be realising this means you may not be as knowledgeable as you may think...

As I mentioned before, soya is one of the biggest causes of deforestation around and has been for decades.
 
Domi said:
less important issues though ?

If we are all Vegan and nobody was starving.

The worlds problems are deeper than that though if no one is starving we have more people dying from disease.

We solve that and we are looking at drinking water

Then sanitation 2+ billion people do not have access to proper sanitation ie a toilet.

Is this really the fault of capitalism ?

Frankly for me it is because we all just do not care enough , we all speak out and say the right things when needed but if a political party came along and said for example we raise income tax by 3% and the moneys goes to world sanitation , disease and Famine projects people would not vote for it.

Honestly just read the comments people make about the pittance the UK gives out in overseas aid in a hundred threads on this forum to understand the fault is not really with the evil corporations , it is with us.

The really sad bit is the UK is actually one of the better countries in the world for this.
Click to expand...

Is it really the fault of capitalism?

Actually I'd say yes. If capitalism didn't exist the large pharmaceuticals wouldn't exist. That means the doubling of populations in the last 50 years in the most deprived areas wouldn't have happened... Death rates would have continued at the rate they were prior to the 20th century where capitalism helped immunise hundreds of millions from smallpox, TB and other diseases while providing cures for malaria and other airborne ailments.

Capitalism really is the root cause of much of the problem. When populations expand above the lands natural capacity deaths ensue. The west have provided medication to keep people alive but we haven't made the land they live on more fertile, less dry and more intensively farmed.
 
Nate Silvers said:
Yes but the best way to control a large business is with money. Don't buy into their practices so more ethical companies can take control. The lesser of two evils.



You know, the world’s largest 'feed the hungry' organization is called Food for Life Global. Look them up online. They've been around over 10 years. Also the 2nd largest group on the planet doing 'feed the hungry' stuff.. is Plenty. Plenty.org is their website. Both are vegetarian groups because they feed 20 to 30 times the amount of people when they use vegetarian food than when groups use meat.

Solve food and water it's a great start. People should at least not be dying from malnutrition like they are.



By not buying that crap. The problem is we are not eating real food anymore. Vote with your wallet and buy whole, ripe, raw, fresh organic food instead. If people buy real bananas instead of banana lolli pops the banana loli pops will simply not be sold because there is no demand. Even the cheaper options of potatoes, rice, pasta etc are not loaded up with rubbish. Not as healthy as fruit, greens, nuts and seeds but far better than animal products / processed foods.
Click to expand...

Obviously the agribusinesses don't have huge banana plantations in places like Costa Rica to grow those bananas do they? Oh wait! Yes they do. I've driven past them, hour after hour of banana plantations, interspersed with palm plantations and the occasional smoke belching factory creating the palm oil that is also sold round the world.
 
Malevolence said:
How many field mice and other cute little critters have to die in the blades of combine harvesters just so those damn vegans can eat their grains and pulses?
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Vegans tread lightly and cause the absolute minimal amount of unintentional suffering to this planet and its inhabitants. Meat, dairy and egg-eaters cause the MAXIMUM amount of intentional and unintentional suffering to this planet and its inhabitants because it is unreasonable to intentionally starve millions of humans to death by feeding around 50 percent of the world's crops to 60 billion land animals, to murder 60 billion land animals and 90 billion marine animals with premeditation, and then accidentally kill wild animals with tractors. With veganism, we could eliminate two problems instead of living with three.

Orionaut said:
Veganisim/Vegetarianism is only practical when supported by an industrialised agricultural system that, ironically, your typical vegetarian/Vegan will profess to despise!

Go Figure!
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I wouldn't despise it, I would love it, cheaper fruit and greens for me! The planet would benefit massively if the vegan diet was produced on a mass scale and animal agriculture was stopped. More trees yes please.

Amp34 said:
We are omnivores, always have been, always will be. Admittedly us westerners could eat less meat but meat is a natural part of our diet...

Alternatively we could get to the root cause of the problem, too many people. We need to reduce our overpopulation and resource consumption. 2-3 Billion (max) living in comfort rather than most of 7+ billion living (mostly) in poverty, while ravaging the worlds resources and destroying the planet for those other organisms that share this world.
Click to expand...

Eating meat is natural? Go bite into a chickens neck, a rabbits back, a pigs arse gonads and all. Like a real natural meat eater. Nobody is going to do it are they? It's not human nature, if you we are talking 1000% natural with no cooking, no tools, (like we lived for 99% of the time we've been here) we'd rather eat a peach or an apple.

Amp34 said:
Instead we would be shopping down even more forest for soya and Palm oil... Growing each of them accounts for between 10-20% (each) of the deforested land each year... Cattle are just as bad.

Unfortunately people have to eat, and while it is more efficient (for land useage) to eat grains rather than meat fed grains, the majority of today's population get their main source of protein from fish... Which is why fish stocks around the world have plummeted. The doubling of our population in about 50 years will do that to you...
Click to expand...

I don't eat soya or palm oil. You do realize soya is grown for animals not humans? We basically buy the leftovers for a very high price, the animals get the cheapest deal - free! Your numbers are wrong on deforestation too regarding animal agriculture. Look at Australia, it's all grass fed beef and the top soil is completely screwed because of it.

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Animal agriculture is the number one polluter.

I don't wanna hear the we have to eat protein myth. It's nonsense. There's not even a medical term for protein deficiency.

Of course I realize I buy food which should be free from agriculture businesses but I'd rather give them money for food which brings about positive affects than negative. Going vegan is sustainable on a large scale. If everyone ate paleo we'd need 6 planets.

Malevolence said:
Obviously the agribusinesses don't have huge banana plantations in places like Costa Rica to grow those bananas do they? Oh wait! Yes they do. I've driven past them, hour after hour of banana plantations, interspersed with palm plantations and the occasional smoke belching factory creating the palm oil that is also sold round the world.
Click to expand...

More than 1,600 banana farms are safeguarding the health of nearly 269,000 acres (109,000 ha) of land through Rainforest Alliance training and certification. If you care so much perhaps you should donate? :p

https://secure3.convio.net/ra/site/...on=form1&_ga=1.75023762.1887280685.1418593730

Also the pharmaceutical industry is created for meat, dairy and egg eaters. Find me a hospital full of sick vegans. You say "when populations expand above the lands natural capacity deaths ensue". Well go vegan then and use less resources :)

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That much of the worlds problems have the same root causes of capitalist expansion and exploitation I cannot really argue against but to blame all the problems of mans past on the current is for me a little too much.
 
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