Breaking News: Hostages taken in Sydney

SteveOBHave said:
What, more comfortable thinking that EVERY single person in the world that I walk by every single day could potentially be a murdering psychopath capable of exactly the same thing regardless of religion, race or belief system?

You think that I'd be more comfortable if I can safely subsection society into groups that are more likely to perpetrate crimes like this, such as Muslims? You might be right - it is far more easy to form an us vs them approach to bigotry.

http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/01/not-all-terrorists-are-muslims/
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the IRA splinter groups exist too

really don't see you point nor how you can bury your head in the sand and claim this has nothing to do with Islam

just because Islamic terror exists doesn't mean other terror groups don't - but failing to acknowledge it and denying the role of fundamentalist Islam on the basis that lots of other muslims are nice and not terrorists is just ridiculous
 
scorza said:
It's not Islam that made this guy do these terrible things - it's mental illness and unfortunately radical Islam/jihad is a very attractive to a lot of disturbed individuals.
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No it's not :/

And you know how damaging attitudes like yours are and how they prevent people from seeking help and making funding the help unattractive to the public so it gets worse.

The reason our mental health care is so poor is because of people like you who label perfect try sane violent people as mentally ill and by association making perfectly safe and non violent mentally ill people be tarred with the same brush
 
There is a depressing but not surprising separation of those posters who are ~ MUSLIMS BAD ~ and those who are thinking of the victims and the awful situation. They are consistent in their awfulness, so there's that I guess.
 
News here is saying one of the hostages tried to wrestle the gun from him and was shot, the other hostage who died had a heart attack.

Hopefully the bloke who was shot didnt trigger the incident and paid the ultimate price to give the other people time to get out, god knows what it must have been like in there when things started going downhill. But even if he did trigger I can understand him trying to take his life into his own hands rather than the whim of a lunatic.

RIP to all - well not all.
 
SteveOBHave said:
It is but it is not embodied by Islam - more often it's a result of political and social motivations using 'religion' to further other agendas.
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religion in general is affected by social and political motivations - not just extremism

fundamentalist views are held by significant portions of muslims, trying to claim that fundamentalist Islamic views are somehow not proper Islam etc.. is the same argument used by the fundamentalists against other muslims who oppose them
 
dowie said:
religion in general is affected by social and political motivations - not just extremism

fundamentalist views are held by significant portions of muslims, trying to claim that fundamentalist Islamic views are somehow not proper Islam etc.. is the same argument used by the fundamentalists against other muslims who oppose them
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I haven't read through any of the thread but did see this post.
I think this sums up the usual posts that will occur, a statement made with NO factual basis.
 
Mynight said:
Do we have stats for this 'significant proportion'?
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yup - for different topics... it varies between particular subject, country etc.. for example you can quite easily get an angry mob in Pakistan to lynch someone on the allegation that they've said something naughty about the Prophet... there are fairly regular killings on the grounds of blasphemy, including the killings of lawyers who even dare to represent people accused of the crime

as an example - views on suicide bombings:

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given the double digit percentages and the size of the populations in these countries you'd be looking at quite a few million who are int he 'sometimes' or 'often' camp on this subject - nearly half the population of Bangladesh, and the majority of the residents of Gaza (not surprising there though)
 
Deep said:
I haven't read through any of the thread but did see this post.
I think this sums up the usual posts that will occur, a statement made with NO factual basis.
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see post above for factual basis... double digit percentage among population in the millions - significant yes or no?
 
yup - I'm not talking about the majority... at no point have I claimed 'all' muslims or muslims in general... I'm just claiming that the subset with fundamentalist views is significant (not just some tiny number) and that this is an Islamic problem - in particular I object to the head-in sand idea that this is 'nothing to do with Islam' and/or that terrorists are just nutters/mentally ill/just bad people - some may be, some aren't and just genuinely believe in a fundamentalist ideology that can justify these acts

another chart:

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The guy was a lone nut, out on bail for 40 sexual assault offences and an accessory to murder charge.

A self-proclaimed Iranian cleric with radical views. He originally claimed to have accomplices with bombs around the city, but the number of bombs kept changing (he first claimed two, then three, then four) which led me to believe it was just a bluff (turns out I was right).

He was originally Shia (as most Iranian Muslims are) but converted to Sunni quite recently. This explains his decision to support IS, which is anti-Shia.

He committed an act of terrorism, but he was not a member of any terrorist group; just a desperate criminal hoping to make a name for himself with a big event.

Very good work by the police, particularly considering the volatility of the situation.
 
Fundamentalist Islam is not the same as Extremist Islam though is it? Anyway back to the point that I'm trying to make.

Was the guy a follower of Islam? In his own twisted way, yes.
Did HE believe that his actions were in line with Islam? In his own twisted way, yes.
Were the interpretations in the Quran able to be used in justifications for these actions? Sure, in his mind.
Does this reasoning then put the onus on his faith as a relevant factor in his deciding to take people hostage and possibly kill them? I do not believe so.

We as rational reasoning human beings are able to discern wrong from right. You guys have stated that it's entirely unlikely that this guy has a mental illness (I'd dispute that but I'm not a psychologist). As human beings there are a vast number of Muslims out there that don't regularly attempt to kill their fellow human beings because they have the faculty to understand wrong from right and their religion has no bearing on this. This guy had done many many awful things and was due to go away for them, my assertion is that his religion is incidental to him being a very bad human. His religion didn't make him do it, his being a bad person did. He only seeks to use his religion to lend validity to his actions. Therefore, his religion has nothing to do with his actions.
 
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SteveOBHave said:
Aussies are not known for reasonable or rational responses to threats from outside of the country (read not white).
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Aussies have responded to this event by offering to ride with Muslim women who feel intimidated on public transport today:

The #illridewithyou hashtag is continuing to trend on Twitter as a show of support for Muslim Australians after the siege at the Lindt cafe in Sydney.

#illridewithyou is trending worldwide on Twitter, rising by hundreds of tweets per minute - within hours it had been used in almost 120,000 tweets.

702 ABC Sydney have had calls from Muslim listeners who say they are too scared to ride on public transport at the moment.

The hashtag appears to have come from a Facebook post from Rachael Jacobs who was riding on a train, and noticed a Muslim woman quietly take off her head covering.

In her post she said: "I ran after her at the train station. I said 'put it back on. I'll walk with u."

Another woman took to Twitter and wrote: "If you reg take the bus b/w Coogee/Martin PL, wear religious attire, &don't feel safe alone: I'll ride withyou. @me for schedule."

..."It's very positive and just makes you feel you are not alone in this and shows you as well the wider community also appreciates what you are going through. So it's very good to feel you are a part of a wider family," Mr Malas said.

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(Source).

I'd call that reasonable and rational. In fact, I'd call it a ringing endorsement of the national character.
 
SteveOBHave said:
As human beings there are a vast number of Muslims out there that don't regularly attempt to kill their fellow human beings because they have the faculty to understand wrong from right and their religion has no bearing on this.
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20,000 ISIS heros say you are wrong


oh and for magnolia
(((sadface)))
there, better?
 
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