Panaroma programme

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I expect an Apple forum is totally the wrong place to post this. However, I felt pretty uncomfortable as an owner of Apple products after watching the BBC Panorama Exposé of Apple last night.

Did anyone else feel the same?
 
I think every electronics company has this issue. The programme could have been about the electronics industry rather than just Apple. It is hard when you don't have control over the entire supply chain which is a challenge for all companies. I felt bad too but it was good to see that Apple are working on fixing this which is probably a lot more than other companies do.
 
I think every electronics company has this issue. The programme could have been about the electronics industry rather than just Apple. It is hard when you don't have control over the entire supply chain which is a challenge for all companies. I felt bad too but it was good to see that Apple are working on fixing this which is probably a lot more than other companies do.

I think that was the point Panorama were making - they singled Apple out because they've spent the last few years banging on about their own ethical superiority and virtues, all whilst their bank balance grows ever greater, and yet... the problems remain and they're just as bad as every other companies.

Apple can claim they audit, do visits and track working hours all they want - if the factories are forging the paper trail it really isn't good enough. They need Apple employees in the factories at every stage, from recruitment to production. In effect, they need their own factories to match their holier-than-thou brand, rather than indirectly exploiting the workers of the lowest bidder, who'll always be willing to pay lip-service to whatever supplier conduct guidelines Apple thinks up.

The letter Apple sent round to their UK staff yesterday was disappointing too. Rather than facing the reality and these issues head-on, they basically just attacked the BBC and climbed atop their white righteous steed.
 
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I didn't know about the Apple letter and though disappointed I'm not surprised.

Rule of Hole - when you are in one stop digging.

Apple should be better than this and saying other companies are guilty too is hardly the point i.e. two wrongs do not make a right.
 
I think that was the point Panorama were making - they singled Apple out because they've spent the last few years banging on about their own ethical superiority and virtues, all whilst their bank balance grows ever greater, and yet... the problems remain and they're just as bad as every other companies.

Apple can claim they audit, do visits and track working hours all they want - if the factories are forging the paper trail it really isn't good enough. They need Apple employees in the factories at every stage, from recruitment to production. In effect, they need their own factories to match their holier-than-thou brand, rather than indirectly exploiting the workers of the lowest bidder, who'll always be willing to pay lip-service to whatever supplier conduct guidelines Apple thinks up.

The letter Apple sent round to their UK staff yesterday was disappointing too. Rather than facing the reality and these issues head-on, they basically just attacked the BBC and climbed atop their white righteous steed.

That's how I would tackle it too. Apple employees in every stage of the supply chain.
 
Agreed. Apple need to have their own people overseeing such operations if they're wanting these things run to their standards. These factories aren't going to do that, especially when they're breaking every single rule and covering it up. But that letter to their employee's makes no sense at all.
 
I think that was the point Panorama were making - they singled Apple out because they've spent the last few years banging on about their own ethical superiority and virtues, all whilst their bank balance grows ever greater, and yet... the problems remain and they're just as bad as every other companies.

Pretty much this. They might not be as bad as the other companies, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and say they're slightly better. Perhaps Pegatron overworked the staff while they ramped up pre-production of the iPhone 6, anyway on Panoramas evidence it's miles away from all the fluffy marketing crap that Apple are kicking out.

Apple can hide behind the subcontractors like Pegatron in this case, and Foxconn in the past but there is a case to answer whatever the cultural differences in the far east.

It's not just as simple as Apple moving production to the US/EU and adding £15 to the price to cover the cost - that would likely just be final assembly. The parts will still be made in the far east. The Assembled in Ireland Mac I had in the 90s was still full of Taiwanese/Chinese subassemblies and parts. IBM in Greenock were "making" Thinkpads in the later days that were mostly assembled in Eastern Europe - the local workforce bolted the keyboard and RAM in...
 
It's nothing surprising nor new revealed in the programme. As stated; the issue is not just with Apple. Foxconn are the third biggest electronics company in the world and they make a lot and produce parts for other companies for electronics goods, and it's a world economy issue; not a China issue.

As a Chinese persons myself (whom lived in the UK all my life), I've looked into the Chinese working economy, people need to understand as much as I pains me, and I certainly don't agree with many of the aspects but it's just the way it is.

Families that live in the country areas of the China and Vietnam will send a child to one of the bigger cites to work with all of what little money they have saved and they will want to work, they will work for a year or two then come back with enough money to support the family for a long while. This is why large companies like Foxconn that will supply living needs such as food and board for the workers.

They would be more upset if they didn't get the job, some won't return back to their family as they would feel that they have failed the family, hence the 'helping' on the questions for the entry exams. Suicides rates may be higher for them who don't get a job, but that stat is not recorded.

The security gates are there to protect the intellectual property of what is being created in the factory, how much would a rival company pay to get a video of the 'next' thing being made.

Companies also shut down for 2/3 months over Chinese New Year (end of jan/start of feb), check any Chinese website for closing time over Chinese new year. as its the typical time of the year when Chinese people return home, a good number of them will not return as they have made their fortune and they can support their family, in a few years they or another member of the family will go and work in the city. So some companies will hold on to workers ID cards to stop this from happening.

Yeah it's slave labor, but if they didn't do it another person will. If China never did it; another 3rd world country will. If no country did it, 1st world countries like the US and UK will be in chaos who rely heavily on the cheap cost of production to supply the needs of their people. Why do you think the US owes so much money, and at least 1.2 trillion of that is to China.

Its easy for us to get on a moral high horse and say this and that, in fact I posted on my FB status before the programme begun, what the programme will show and before anyone (of my friends) got on their morale high horse, that it was not an issue of Apple but a production issue and to understand world and china's economy.

Things are looking up for China, they are basically where Japan was in the early 80's, they are copying good and making them better and cheaper in some cases now. Companies like LG and Kangertech are being innovative and becoming the market leaders in their fields, but the country is moving slower than Japan did, not sure if that's on purpose as they seen what's happen to Japan economy and don't want boom and bust.

The way to support them is to buy the high end Chinese products and brands, give money to the companies like Apple, Sony PS4 and Microsoft xbone, as they are trying to make a difference. Also companies like LG, who are showing the rest of the Chinese companies that they don't need to re-brand to make money, that they are doing it right and to keep coming up with ideas, the number of times I've had to say to someone that it may say Sony on the outside of your TV but it be a LG LCD panel on the inside.

The sad thing is, that companies are always looking for next country to base their production operations in, for when China is too expensive 'to do business in'.

The BBC basically used 'Apple' as a headliner, they could have quite easily used Microsoft, for the xboxes or samsung. In fact they could quite easily used 'Nike' and Vietnam or India!
 
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IIRC, Panorama did do an episode on Nike's supply chain.

Whilst all that is true about this being an inherent problem with consumer capitalism (spatial switching in a globalised world is inevitable), the case remains that Apple could use its position and considerable wealth to leverage significant change amongst Chinese/Taiwanese manufacturers. I'd actually argue that it has a moral obligation to do so in its current position as the worlds most valuable company.
 
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I do have more of an issue Apple's PR stunt on world's AIDs day...
The amount of time and money they spent re-branding everything, they could have used that and gave it straight to AIDs charity. They rise $20 million from the whole exercise, which for a world wide company when compared to other charity event is poor!
 
I am well aware that Foxconn and Pegatron manufacture for other brands besides Apple. However, as top dog Apple has the financial muscle to ensure it's suppliers adhere to any rules it sets. These companies have to meet strict quality controls set by Apple, therefore Apple should set those same standards to working conditions and ensure they are closely monitored.
 
I see they now have Apple clickbait on tv too...

Shocking journalism particularly as it seems Apple are the ones trying to make a difference in such a corrupt country.

No mention of your Samsungs etc who use exactly the same companies either...
 
I see they now have Apple clickbait on tv too...

Shocking journalism particularly as it seems Apple are the ones trying to make a difference in such a corrupt country.

No mention of your Samsungs etc who use exactly the same companies either...

Well if stating others are also guilty clears your conscience then fine. The problem with your post though is that Apple are the ones always trying to claim the moral high ground and if you do that then expect to come under special scrutiny.

Apple have been in China for many many years so it's not as though they haven't had plenty time to tackle these issues. Apple are one of the richest companies on the planet and as such they haven't a leg to stand on regarding what we all saw on the Panorama programme.

I'm not sure I would try and defend the indefensible, but hey who knows, TC may just send you a tee-shirt by way of a thank you for Christmas (produced in China of course).
 
Watched this the other evening. Although it raised some awareness, the way it was presented wasn't great as per other dumbed down BBC programmes such as Question Time.

They should have made it a more general one and then approached the major players for their side of the story rather than just one company.
 
I think the point has been made more than once that "Apple" as the richest company in the world should do something about it.

Has anyone thought that they can't do anything about it? apart from remove their contracts from China? Remember this is an independent company who apple have been contracted to produce a certain number of items to a certain quality. They are not sub-company of apple nor do apple hold shares in the companies. As a customer of a company; you can't just walk in and start demanding stuff, you can certainly walk away with your money.

It was stated more than once in the programme that "Apple's needs China", IMHO; if apple was to remove their contract from companies like foxconn, what do you think will happen? They will continue to make the other products and likely grab another big contract to make Microsoft Surfaces or something else long the lines. Apple wouldn't be where they are now, and they wouldn't certainly be able to hold on to their position without Chinese production or another third world producing their items.

The only way for Apple to help is if Apple brought out or into the company; and lets face it, the Chinese government will tax and fine the hell out of Apple on a regular bases, like they are doing with other foreign owned business.

The other method is for Apple to foot the bill for the improvements themselves, again their can offer to do this; but there's no guarantees that they will accept the offer or that the money will be used to improve the life of the workers.

Any person/company doing business in a foreign country needs to respect the law of the land (expect Rupert Murdoch < ****), and Apple and any other company are walking on eggshells... as they have a fair wack of their stock and assets in that country. What do you think will happen if Foxconn or the the Chinese government turns around and say, no your not having your stock! (IIRC this happen to Atari and a south America company). Yeah see you in a Chinese court! Apple may have the money; but they don't make the rules.

Again, I need to state that I don't think what's happening is right and as a customer of Apple you can vote with your money and say "I refuse to buy from them until they stop using third world production methods"; which oddly enough no one on here have said! This has worked for a lot of things; hence free range eggs. But please apply the third world production rule to all your products, that includes the ones with parts from third world and assemble elsewhere.
 
I think you only have to look at the posts and views in this thread compared to the iPhone 6 thread. People in the First World don't care how workers who produce their goods are treated just so long as they get their iProducts and it isn't them that's having to work in those conditions.

It's a harsh thing to post I know but what other conclusion can one draw?
 
It seems that a lot of the people hopping up and down about this see it as an Apple problem, when it isn't. No doubt conditions aren't ideal, but do you really think you're solving a problem buy purchasing an HTC phone instead? At least Apple are trying to do something about it.

If you're going to get on a high-horse about working conditions in the factories of Apple's subcontractors then I hope you take the same approach to everything you purchase - clothing, food, etc.
 
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