Shooting at French Satirical Magazine

Macro · 7 Jan 2015 at 19:48

lemonade said:
What do you expect them to do? Issuing fatwa's has no meaning or authority. Have you seen the whole situation with ISIS? Most of the leading jihadist scholars have condemned them and refuted them, issues fatwas etc, but those who follow ISIS call them heretic and dismiss them.

Ok, I accept that although I can't help but feel if nothing else it would make it very clear to everyone else this isn't in the name of Islam. So, what do you suggest can be done by the Muslim community or do we just accept that people are going to blame Islam in general?

lemonade · 7 Jan 2015 at 19:51

Macro said:
Ok, so, what do you suggest?

My suggestion would be too radical for this forum.

chief barker · 7 Jan 2015 at 19:55

"The saddest, most profoundly ironic thing about it will have been that the satire worked. It did its job. It so threatened its target, cut so deeply at the truth, that it resorted to the most cowardly, most offensive and despicable form of lashing out".

dowie · 7 Jan 2015 at 19:58

lemonade said:
If it is religion, then why havent 1.5 billion other people done the same act?

tell you what - go into a Pakistani or Afghan town/village and insult the prophet... what do you reckon will happen?

a) nothing - it is only a tiny minority of muslims who would act violently, chance that any of that tiny minority live there is slim

b) - something more like this - since it is actually an inherent part of their belief system that blasphemy is punished by death

tiny minority somehow managed to form a whole mob and kill some UN workers all because someone the other side of the world burned a book

lemonade · 7 Jan 2015 at 20:03

Macro said:
Ok, I accept that although I can't help but feel if nothing else it would make it very clear to everyone else this isn't in the name of Islam. So, what do you suggest can be done by the Muslim community or do we just accept that people are going to blame Islam in general?

Many do come out and say this isn't from Islam and that its wrong and so on, just you don't hear about it because its not splashed across the national newspapers or on the tv, instead you find airtime given to the likes of Anjum choudhury.

I think the issue is too complex for the muslim community to do one or two things that will suddenly take away the backlash away from them, there are too many factors involved that first need addressing, and people will always look to blame someone or something for the actions of others, you see it all the time and not just issues involving muslims.

Also there needs to be proactive approach in dealing with the causes to get to the issue, rather than always being reactive, but that is never going to happen, because different people have different agendas.

Plus at the end of the day there will always be nutters who are willing to take things to the extreme to get their points across, whether its a muslim or not.

NVP · 7 Jan 2015 at 20:03

dowie · 7 Jan 2015 at 20:06

NVP said:
Been there, done that nothing happened except laughs and giggles and an in depth discussion well into the evening.

Stop thinking "they're all the same", would you accept a similar stance about foreign opinions of the English?

silly comparison - we're talking about a group of people with shared beliefs... pointing out that people defined by shared beliefs might actually share some beliefs is erm... fairly basic. The punishment for insulting the prophet isn't exactly hotly debated/disputed... That most muslims wouldn't see it as thier duty to carry it out themselves (especially not when living in a western state) is another matter - but the fact that that underlying punishment is believed to be the appropriate one, and is on the books of a bunch of Islamic states, is the fundamental issue here.

Mr Jack · 7 Jan 2015 at 20:08

dowie said:
Islam hasn't move on/progressed - it is still a much more violent and backwards religion

No, it's just widely practised in parts of the world with a more violent and backward culture. It's not like there haven't been massacres, murders and atrocities motivated by Christian belief. Out culture has moved on, other parts of the world haven't. The nature of religious practice reflects culture, not the other way round.

NVP · 7 Jan 2015 at 20:11

dowie · 7 Jan 2015 at 20:12

lemonade said:
Many do come out and say this isn't from Islam and that its wrong and so on, just you don't hear about it because its not splashed across the national newspapers or on the tv, instead you find airtime given to the likes of Anjum choudhury.

they can claim that when some suicide bombing takes place etc..

if questioned on the appropriate Islamic punishment for insulting the prophet you'd be hard pressed to find many (or even any) who didn't inform you that it is death... they'll obviously throw in a few exceptions such as reporting to the proper authorities or how when living in a non-muslim state they must obey the laws of the land. However you're not going to find many excuses for the actual underlying punishment - Islam is pretty clear on it.

lemonade · 7 Jan 2015 at 20:12

dowie said:
tell you what - go into a Pakistani or Afghan town/village and insult the prophet... what do you reckon will happen?

a) nothing - it is only a tiny minority of muslims who would act violently, chance that any of that tiny minority live there is slim

b) - something more like this - since it is actually an inherent part of their belief system that blasphemy is punished by death

tiny minority somehow managed to form a whole mob and kill some UN workers all because someone the other side of the world burned a book

So how many is that out of 1.5 billion Muslims? If it was such a sacred part of the religion where all adherents were obliged to fulfil an action, then believe me all 1.5billion would be shooting a rifle out. But in reality it's not.

If you went to Pakistan and drew an offensive picture of the prophet and paraded it around, you would probably at the worst get killed, they don't take that kind of 'humor' in those parts of the world its not part of their culture to be crude and offensive like that, if you insulted someones mother, expect to be killed as well.

Fact of the matter, the whole insulting the Prophet business is just overblown, he has been insulted and mocked since day one, he actually had worse where he was physically abused yet did not react, and throughout the conflicts between the Christian world and Islamic word, they used to insult him, yet no army was ever sent to wage war because of that. The whole killing someone cos they insulted the prophet stems from a single incidence involving some poet who wrote a few insulting things.

Spook187 · 7 Jan 2015 at 20:14

dowie said:
tiny minority somehow managed to form a whole mob and kill some UN workers all because someone the other side of the world burned a book

Filthy animals, i hope that mob got a bomb dropped right on them after that.

dowie · 7 Jan 2015 at 20:17

NVP said:
The "silly" comparison aside, I answered your loaded question with actual experience - does that not help you understand your stance is inappropriate and incorrect?

nope yours is irrelevant - you can claim anything you like on the net

looking at the wider evidence - Pakistan still has laws against blasphemy and the death penalty is the punishment - generally though people don't get to trial as they get killed by angry mobs - most lawyers won't even touch the cases - the last lawyer to defend someone on a blasphemy charge was openly threatened in court by the prosecution then later shot in his office

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-27319433

I'll take your 'actual experience' with a pinch of salt as it isn't reflective of reality:

Allegations of blasphemy against Islam are taken very seriously in Pakistan.

Critics argue that blasphemy laws are frequently misused to settle personal scores and that members of minority groups are often unfairly targeted.

Mr Rehman was defending Junaid Hafeez, a lecturer at Bahauddin Zakariya University accused by hardline student groups of making derogatory remarks against the Prophet Muhammad in March last year.

An official at the independent Human Rights Commission of Pakistan (HRCP) told AFP that for a year no lawyer was prepared to take up the case because of fear of reprisals from extremist religious groups.

Mr Rehman, a rights activist and co-ordinator of the HRCP, decided to defend Mr Hafeez despite reportedly receiving death threats.

they're so chilled out about it all that politicians who've attempted to amend the laws have had to back off as a result of their lives being threatned

ReltonBFD · 7 Jan 2015 at 20:20

Just had a listen to LBC , had a Muslim lad on saying , basically on the lines of what i just said , that he has actually never heard an Imam condemn any recent terrorist attack . NEVER !, he also said he does not know if its down to intimidation or fear that you don't actually know who a fanatic / extremist .

Frankly its out of control , needs a massive revamp - think new testament , needs progression . All other religions are seen moving with the times and modern tolerances . Not Islam

dowie · 7 Jan 2015 at 20:22

lemonade said:
So how many is that out of 1.5 billion Muslims? If it was such a sacred part of the religion where all adherents were obliged to fulfil an action, then believe me all 1.5billion would be shooting a rifle out. But in reality it's not.

they're not necessarily obliged to fulfill the punishment - though that isn't the point... perhaps that is the source of your confusion/false expectations of the effects of what such a punishment existing ought to have

the fact that that punishment does exists though and is widely accepted- that it is seen as right, that has had a big influence on this attack

titaniumx3 · 7 Jan 2015 at 20:23

As a muslim, I honestly don't get what I should do about this other than voice my opposition against it, which is pretty redundant anyway. Seems to be something that's specific to Islam as no one other group of people seem to have to share the burden of guilt like this.

lemonade · 7 Jan 2015 at 20:25

ReltonBFD said:
Just had a listen to LBC , had a Muslim lad on saying , basically on the lines of what i just said , that he has actually never heard an Imam condemn any recent terrorist attack . NEVER !, he also said he does not know if its down to intimidation or fear that you don't actually know who a fanatic / extremist .

Frankly its out of control , needs a massive revamp - think new testament , needs progression . All other religions are seen moving with the times and modern tolerances . Not Islam

Lol well that is quite frankly laughable, since so many Imam's are quick to condemn even before an attack has been confirmed to be done by a muslim.

Dis86 · 7 Jan 2015 at 20:27

titaniumx3 said:
As a muslim, I honestly don't get what I should do about this other than voice my opposition against it, which is pretty redundant anyway. Seems to be something that's specific to Islam as no one other group of people seem to have to share the burden of guilt like this.

Really?!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan

http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1997272_1997273_1997275,00.html

Entire nations apologising!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_apologies_made_by_Pope_John_Paul_II

Would you look at that...a pope...

It's almost, almost as if other entire groups have apologised for things...

lemonade · 7 Jan 2015 at 20:29

titaniumx3 said:
As a muslim, I honestly don't get what I should do about this other than voice my opposition against it, which is pretty redundant anyway. Seems to be something that's specific to Islam as no one other group of people seem to have to share the burden of guilt like this.

You don't have to share the burden of guilt for the actions of individuals. The same way some random person of the street of Britain isn't responsible for the actions of the government when they bomb some country and kill people.

titaniumx3 · 7 Jan 2015 at 20:31

Islam doesn't work that way, we don't have a pope, it's pretty decentralised.