Oxford University Press bans use of pig, sausage or pork-related words to avoid offending Muslims

DangerMoose said:
You are twisting my words. I am suggesting that Islam as a religion is not a primary motivating factor for success in the search for knowledge. In support of this I would point to the fact that Islamic scholars are most certainly not at the forefront of expanding our knowledge today. They seem to have enjoyed a heyday of learning some centuries ago, then kind of tailed off. Perhaps them conquering places where people happened to know more than average was a factor?
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Forgive my ignorance then because when you said "Islamic scholars deserve little to no credit" I presumed that you meant a polite version of "Islamic scholars deserve no credit". Where did I twist your words?

All I am suggesting is that perhaps the peoples responsible for the credit should get it. And that perhaps there are other factors that should be assessed when implying that people who make discoveries/ perform scientific research shouldn't be credited simply because they are a part of a religion which you disagree with.

Your argument was "so what if they contributed to science if the whole religion is bad news?" (A gross oversimplifying again I'll admit but still) predicated on the pretense that you believe that people were giving Islam special treatment.

My argument is, perhaps the people who were giving Islamic scholars special treatment were, in fact, giving them equal treatment to every other religious order?!
 
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TheBDog said:
Forgive my ignorance then because when you said "Islamic scholars deserve little to no credit" I presumed that you meant a polite version of "Islamic scholars deserve no credit". Where did I twist your words?
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Well no, what I actually said (on this very page no less) was this:

"But I am suggesting that Islam deserves little to no credit for advancing it."

So there seems little point in addressing the rest when it does not relate to what I actually said.
 
Major scientific advances have occured in every civilisation which has been politically stable enough to be relatively free of war (e.g. expansions and border skirmishes, but not under the threat of uprisings and major invasion), prosperous enough to support an academic elite, and free enough to support trade of ideas with other nations.

Religion has little to do with it.
 
Ok I'll start back from here:

DangerMoose said:
I love the Islamic scholars cliche. As if being Islamic was the main motivation. As if human curiosity was not driving people to learn about the world around them (where social circumstances allowed) for quite a long time prior to the rise of Islam.
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Nobody implied that being Islamic was the motivation but all people were saying was 'credit where credit is due'.

To add to this, I was suggesting that their achievements shouldn't be snuffed at. Particularly when you consider that other religions(read Christianity) had a hand in the opposite.

Even more so when you consider that it isn't just religion which has had a hand in sending us backward in terms of development. "Human curiosity" may be the driving Force behind it all, but at least they did more to acknowledge the research than what Western cultures of the past tend to do (discredit/ burn at the stake as a witch).

So when you say "Islam deserves little to no credit" here's where we disagree. Also, forgive me for not quoting you 100% accurately I got the important bits down(the "little to no credit") and you're just being pedantic now.
 
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TheBDog said:
Ok I'll start back from here:


Nobody implied that being Islamic was the motivation but all people were saying was 'credit where credit is due'.

To add to this, I was suggesting that their achievements shouldn't be snuffed at. Particularly when you consider that other religions(read Christianity) had a hand in the opposite.

Even more so when you consider that it isn't just religion which has had a hand in sending us backward in terms of development. "Human curiosity" may be the driving Force behind it all, but at least they did more acknowledge the research than what Western cultures of the past tend to do (discredit/ burn at the stake as a witch).

So when you say "Islam deserves little to no credit" here's where we disagree. Also, forgive me for not quoting you 100% accurately I got the important bits down(the "little to no credit") and you're just being pedantic now.
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No, I am not being pedantic because the important bit was whether or not their religion was the motivation, not whether or not they as individuals contributed. So by misquoting me, you altered the entire meaning.

So then, I would suggest a radical new name for people in predominantly Islamic countries who advance human knowledge. "Scholars".

Credit where it is due to the individuals and organisations that do motivate the quest for knowledge. Not to those desperate for some validation when they can so easily be dismissed as backwards,
 
spoffle said:
That's because it is. They do it in Christian countries too.
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You are missing the point yes FGM is cultural I agree but the point was why do people say the science was Islamic - it was regional based and therefore cultural to.

You can't pick and chose you have to apply the logic both ways.
 
DangerMoose said:
No, I am not being pedantic because the important bit was whether or not their religion was the motivation, not whether or not they as individuals contributed. So by misquoting me, you altered the entire meaning.

So then, I would suggest a radical new name for people in predominantly Islamic countries who advance human knowledge. "Scholars".

Credit where it is due to the individuals and organisations that do motivate the quest for knowledge. Not to those desperate for some validation when they can so easily be dismissed as backwards,
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I will put my point of view across another way. Hey, at least they actively didn't discourage or destroy the research and findings. Which is an achievement in of itself.
 
spoffle said:
I think they subconsciously want to disassociate themselves (due to also being people) from the things that people do, so they blame immaterial things like religion and ideologies.
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Lol at ideologies not being relevant

I guess large chunks of the German people just became evil in WW2 for example... fascism is just an immaterial factor.

No issues at all with militant Islam, today just 'people'....
 
DangerMoose said:
Well should I be? We've gone from Islamic scholars advancing human knolwedge to "hey, at least they did not burn stuff!"

Not to mention the question of whether or not the lack of burning stuff was itself motivated by Islam.
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Religion. In general. Other backwards culture related things already discussed. Not Islam with regards to the burning stuff.

My summary was literally my entire point from the very beginning. I am sighing because it has taken this long to say and be understood.

Trust me when I say I have no interest in trying to impress you with my argument.
 
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Xordium said:
You are missing the point yes FGM is cultural I agree but the point was why do people say the science was Islamic - it was regional based and therefore cultural to.

You can't pick and chose you have to apply the logic both ways.
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Well I certainly don't believe the science was "Islamic" in that context, or was done BECAUSE they were Muslims. But as you said, the logic goes both ways. I don't believe people who carry out FGM that are also Muslims, do it BECAUSE they are Muslims.

dowie said:
Lol at ideologies not being relevant

I guess large chunks of the German people just became evil in WW2 for example... fascism is just an immaterial factor.

No issues at all with militant Islam, today just 'people'....
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So you mean to say an ideology was evil all by itself?

The people who went along with it were responsible for what happened. You can't really argue against it. What you can argue against is WHY they did what they did outside of it being an ideology.

You can "lol" at things all you want, it doesn't really change anything about the fact that people do bad things because they're people and it's unfortunately a trait of humans.
 
spoffle said:
Well I certainly don't believe the science was "Islamic" in that context, or was done BECAUSE they were Muslims. But as you said, the logic goes both ways. I don't believe people who carry out FGM that are also Muslims, do it BECAUSE they are Muslims.
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Neither do I but on these forums it is frequently portrayed as something that Islam gave the world - a positive thing a way of saying hey Islam is not all bad - and it simply is not.
 
D.P. said:
Funny enough I don't see any mention of it on their official guidelines, so whwere is the evidence for this?
https://global.oup.com/academic/authors/submissions/?cc=us&lang=en
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I think we have already established this isn't an overriding rule more of a if you are going to do a children's book to be read in Yemen then Peppa Pig aint a good idea and that there is a possibility that they would be doing a book for there as they release books "in over 200 countries" blah blah blah etc.

So there was really nothing in it. I strongly suspect there is a publishing house in Saudi Arabia and they too advise that people in Great Britain may not want their children reading about a young lad whose father is the master of ceremonies in chopchop square to any aspiring young Saudi writers (not that you'd ever get a proper Saud doing work of course they are above that kind of nonsense!).
 
Xordium said:
Neither do I but on these forums it is frequently portrayed as something that Islam gave the world - a positive thing a way of saying hey Islam is not all bad - and it simply is not.
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Well I certainly think that's why people are so quick to do so, they feel like they have to show something that "their people" have done that can't be criticised at all.
 
spoffle said:
Well I certainly think that's why people are so quick to do so, they feel like they have to show something that "their people" have done that can't be criticised at all.
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Yes. And I can see why the do it and you have to be careful that you don't condemn all Muslims for the actions of some (that does not mean there isn't a burden of solving the problem on all though). I am very careful to say my bone of contention is Islam not Muslims.

However, saying that there is a very good point to be made that the way some Muslims commit crimes and the severity of the crimes they commit is very much influenced by the religion and the contact they gain from it and the association they have from it eg beheading as a form of killing.
 
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